The Assembly met at 13:30 with the Llywydd (Elin Jones) in the Chair.

I call Members to order.

1. Questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Finance

The first item on our agenda this afternoon is questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Finance, and the first question is from Russell George.

Tourism

Russell George AC: 1. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on business rate relief for the tourism sector? OAQ52538

Mark Drakeford AC: Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. We support businesses across Wales, including those in the tourism sector, through a range of relief schemes. In the current financial year, we will provide £210 million in reliefs, supporting more than three quarters of Welsh business rate payers.

Russell George AC: There is a system called check, challenge, appeal that operates in England, which allows businesses to check the facts about their properties and view valuations before deciding whether to challenge the valuation. This seems to minimise uncertainty and ensure businesses reach a resolution quicker. It also reduces uncertainty for local authorities, who, of course, have to set aside money to cover potential appeals. So, I wonder whether you intend to bring forward such a system here in Wales.
Secondly, I wonder whether you could comment on the need to reform business rates in the tourism sector, with the likes of Airbnb and other businesses competing with those types of businesses, and also the likes of businesses, such as in my own constituency, where some operators own, for example, four self-catering units on one site, and they're competing against businesses that have far more self-catering units but scattered across a wide area and who pay no business rates at all, but they do pay council tax at a much lower rate. So, I wonder whether you could comment on the reform that's needed in the tourism sector in this regard, and I have written to you with a proposal from a constituent about a flat rate of 25 per cent across all tourism businesses, regardless of size.

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, I thank Russell George for those follow-up questions. We have recently completed a consultation on reform of the appeals system in the business rate sector, and it is an area that is ripe for reform, and we do intend to bring forward proposals. We do not intend simply to import into Wales the check, challenge, appeal system as it has been applied in England, where there are many businesses who feel that the playing field has been tilted significantly against them and that their appeals are not fairly heard. So, while I agree with Russell George there is genuine room for simplifying the system, for making it more efficient, for eliminating appeals that never end up finally being heard, I still want to retain a system that is clearly fair to businesses who have a legitimate reason for making an appeal.
The Member is also right to point to the unfairness, as many in the tourism sector see it, in competition from organisations like Airbnb, who are not physically located in Wales and therefore don't have to pay business rates, while a business on the street somewhere in a town in Wales does. We are looking to see whether it is possible to address that issue. It is more likely, I think, to be addressed by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who has recently said that he intends to investigate changes to tax legislation to see whether Amazon—another example of an organisation that doesn't pay business rates, while a small bookshop on a high street will—. So, we keep a watching brief on that issue, knowing that there are some unfairnesses in the system.
And, finally, on his point in relation to self-catering units, I've had correspondence, as he says, from himself, I've had it from Kirsty Williams, I've had it from Eluned Morgan, and we will look carefully at the proposals that have been put to us. I think it's fair, Llywydd, for me to say that we already provide extensive rate relief to small business—it's a small business rate relief scheme. And, sometimes, organisations that have a large cluster of tourism outlets do not qualify within the rules of the scheme as it stands. But I'm aware of the issue, grateful for the correspondence, and we will continue to take a close look at it.

David Rees AC: Cabinet Secretary, the tourism sector is a wide-ranging area. It covers places like the Glyncorrwg ponds, or the mountain bikes that are in Glyncorrwg, but those also cover the self-catering units where people stay at to use those systems. But what serves that self-catering sector also are our small businesses, which serve the community as a whole, and very often as a single business within that community, and, if that business was lost, at off-peak times we would see the community suffer as well. Will you look at expanding the opportunities to small businesses in communities that serve the tourism sector but also serve the community, because the business rate relief for some of those is still forcing them, in off-peak times, to struggle?

Mark Drakeford AC: I understand the point the Member makes very well. Llywydd, there are just over 5,000 properties classified as self-catering businesses in the data collection exercise carried out in 2017, and, of those, 96 per cent of them, over 4,800, were in receipt of assistance from the small business rate relief scheme. The wider point that David Rees points is to the case for aligning small business rate relief with the social as well as the economic purposes of the Welsh Government. We have an indiscriminate system. Businesses get small business rate relief whether that relief is essential to their business or not, and I'm interested to look at reforms that would better align the money that the public purse provides in this area with the economic and social outcomes that we are seeking to achieve.

Brexit

Dawn Bowden AC: 2. What assessment has the Cabinet Secretary made of the impact on Wales of the UK Government not reaching a deal with the EU-27 on the arrangements for leaving the EU? OAQ52535

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank the Member for that question. The UK Government’s chaotic handling of Brexit undoubtedly risks a catastrophic 'no deal'. The White Paper published by the UK Government finally set out a change of direction. It must now move away from their red line strategy towards the right form of Brexit, as we set out over 18 months ago in 'Securing Wales’ Future'.

Dawn Bowden AC: Thank you for that response, Cabinet Secretary. With Tories resigning almost every day, and others doing all they can to undermine their beleaguered Prime Minister, I'm sure I'm not alone in finding the whole debacle around the Brexit negotiations pretty alarming for the future of Wales. At the very moment when calm heads are required in order to deal with a tough set of negotiations, all we can see is a process that appears out of control and is plunging us towards the prospect of a disastrous 'no deal' and all the damage that that will cause. Now, as you know, Cabinet Secretary, I have much experience of negotiation, and one thing I do know is that when you're in a hole you stop digging. So, would you agree with me that, for everyone's sake, it's now time to call for a pause and to ask the EU-27 to extend the timetable so that this job can be done properly?

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank the Member for that question. Indeed, she is a very experienced and formidable negotiator in my experience of being on the opposite side of the table to her. I agree that the chaos in the UK Government is deeply alarming. She proposes extending the article 50 deadline, and that may yet be needed, although I think we should be under no illusions about the difficulties that would lie in the path of achieving that. The real solution is for the Prime Minister to come forward, vigorously defend an approach that clearly embraces participation in the single market and the customs union, which would resolve the issue of the Irish border and the damage that that is doing to the potential withdrawal agreement. The withdrawal agreement has another deadline in it as well, Llywydd, which we discussed on the floor of the Assembly yesterday, and that is the deadline around the transition period. It makes no more sense to have a cliff edge in December 2020 than in March 2019, and we need flexibility on that issue as well.

Mark Isherwood AC: Clearly, our colleagues in Westminster have voted as they have voted over the last few days. And, ahead of Dominic Raab's meeting with Mr Barnier, I believe tomorrow, with the aim of accelerating negotiations to complete the withdrawal agreement in time for the October deadline, officials of the UK and the EU are understood to have met on Monday to discuss the Irish border, the future relationship and final withdrawal agreement issues, and to have met yesterday, and will be meeting today, to discuss the final remaining 20 per cent of the UK exit agreement. What input have you or your officials had into this week's talks, if any?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, I wish Mr Raab well in the discussions that he will have. When the First Minister was with Michel Barnier on Monday, Mr Barnier did indeed show the First Minister the text of the agreement, showing the 80 per cent that had been agreed, and the remaining 20 per cent yet to be agreed. We had an opportunity to make an input there. We continue to have opportunities at official level. Do they come at us in a way that we think is aligned to the responsibilities that we, and other devolved administrations, exercise? And are we given the sort of opportunity that would genuinely assist in shaping the UK Government's proposition? Well, I'm afraid, we know from long experience that that is not the case. We continue to take whatever opportunities are available to us.

David Rees AC: Cabinet Secretary, as you know, we are heading towards a situation where the chaos we have seen in London—where, last week, they were actually running through the Commons with White Papers, because no-one had seen them, and the resignations of Ministers—is pushing us towards a 'no deal' exit. Mark Isherwood has highlighted that the officials were negotiating on Monday, yesterday and today. Well, probably, they had a different set of guidelines on Monday, yesterday and today, and, therefore, they don't even know what they were talking about. That leads us to a possible and likely scenario of 'no deal' on exit. Yesterday, you indicated that you were preparing contingency plans for that situation. Have you undertaken an analysis of the priority areas for those contingency plans, so that we know how the Welsh Government will look to protect those priority areas for our economy and for the people of Wales?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, I can assure the Member that that contingency planning is happening, that it does involve identifying those areas that lie directly within the responsibility of the Welsh Government, that would look at the impacts of a 'no deal' Brexit that would fall more sharply on the Welsh population, and then draw up contingency plans to deal with that catastrophic outcome.

Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople

Questions now from party spokespeople to the Cabinet Secretary. The Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Steffan Lewis.

Steffan Lewis AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Yesterday, we saw the publication of two documents that are significant to Wales's fiscal and economic well-being. The first one was the document from the Office for Budget Responsibility—the fiscal sustainability report. The second was the Welsh Government's paper on reforming UK funding and fiscal arrangements after separation from the European Union.
The OBR's report was a stark warning, a further warning if we needed it, that we can expect unsustainable public finances in the UK for the short to medium term at least, and that that would put significant further pressures on budgets, and that we could expect further fiscal contraction. In the Welsh Government's document, which Plaid Cymru welcomes broadly, particularly those elements that relate to fair funding for Wales, it states that Wales should not lose a single penny as a result of leaving the European Union and that future regional policy should remain devolved fully to the Welsh Government. I wonder, within the context of the OBR's forecast, if the Cabinet Secretary can update the Assembly on whether or not the UK Government has conceded the financial implications of future devolution of regional policy, and the fact of the principle that it should remain devolved.

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, thanks, Steffan Lewis, for that. He's absolutely right to say that the OBR's latest forecast is consistent with what they have been saying for many months now. They are part of that economic mainstream that tells us that if we were to leave the European Union on a crash-out 'no deal' basis, then we're facing a contraction of our economy between 8 per cent and 10 per cent, and that is massive. Now, not everybody agrees with it, but mainstream economic forecasters such as the OBR are in exactly that position.
We don't have the assurances from the UK Government that Steffan Lewis has asked about, although I have discussed this issue directly with the Chief Secretary to the Treasury, directly with the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, and made our point. We will not sign up to a shared prosperity fund that, for example, might offer us a Barnett share of that fund, which would undoubtedly be well below what we have as a result of the needs assessment that leads to the money that we get from the European Union. Nor will we sign up to a bidding regime for a shared prosperity fund in which UK Government Ministers set the rules, UK Government Ministers make the decisions and UK Government Ministers adjudicate on disputes when those arise. We have given the UK Treasury a solution to a problem, and they're not an organisation short of problems on their hands. The solution is the one we set out in our document: simply put into the baseline of the National Assembly the money that we get as a result of our qualification for that help under the European Union and then allow us to make the decisions that will allow us to align that money with the needs of our regional economic development for the future.

Steffan Lewis AC: I thank the Cabinet Secretary for that answer. It's disappointing though and not surprising any more that he is yet to have assurances from the UK Government that regional policy would remain devolved and that Wales wouldn't lose out on a single penny. What I think people might be interested to learn from Welsh Government, however, is its future vision for regional policy, if we continue to retain it at a national level here in Wales as a policy area, and of course continue to receive the equivalent funding too. Is the Cabinet Secretary able to elaborate on his vision for the future of regional policy?
I know that the Welsh Government hasn't had much luck with maps recently, but there will be some across the country who will be concerned that, if we have new regions in Wales to replace west Wales and the Valleys—the traditional convergence funding regions—places like Rhondda, the Heads of the Valleys, Blaenau Gwent and so on, would be in with Cardiff, the most prosperous part of the country, and that that would mask, potentially, the disadvantage and the economic aid that is needed in those communities.
There are schools of thought, of course, that suggest that there shouldn't be regions within Wales for the sake of regional policy at all and that it should be a community-based project and that's something that Welsh Government has looked at in the past. So, I wonder if he could give an indication of Welsh Government thinking when it comes to how we would administer regional policy and how disadvantaged communities will not lose out in future.

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Steffan Lewis for that important question. As he knows, we published a paper in the series of documents we have published since the White Paper of January 2017 on regional policy. That was not an attempt to set out a definitive set of arrangements for the future, but to sum up the state of the debate at that point, and we've had a very lively debate since, with many contributions to a consultation we've carried out on that paper. We've published those consultation responses and I hope to be in a position in the autumn to bring forward a paper that sums that up and does set a more definite set of propositions in place.
The point that he made is an important one, because it gets to the heart of a dilemma in it. In those consultation responses there is a great deal of consensus across Wales on the need for greater flexibility in the future. European Union funding, if there is a silver lining in this at all, can come to us with fairly rigid rules attached to it: geographical rigidity and, the sorts of things you can spend the money on, there are rigidities there too. And the consultation said that this is an opportunity for us to be more flexible around some of those things. But then that does give rise to an anxiety on the part of those geographical areas that have benefited from funding so far that this may be to their detriment. The Welsh Government's position is that we have no intention of operating in that way and what we see flexibility as is not absorbing areas of greater need in a wider economy that disguises that need, but to allow, at the margin, a sensible flexibility that means that you are not prevented from making good investments that will be to the benefit of those areas because you have an over-rigid set of rules.

Steffan Lewis AC: I thank him for that answer, and I'm pleased to hear that we wouldn't have a situation in Wales where—as much as we don't want Wales as a whole to lose out on a single penny of what we could expect in regional aid, we wouldn't want any community to lose a single penny in terms of what it could expect in regional aid as well.
Another aspect that is touched upon in the latest paper published by the Welsh Government is that of state aid and, of course, this is an area where there will be a requirement for inter-governmental agreement unless, of course, the Westminster Government assumes complete responsibility for the issue and we are forced into a race to the bottom on state aid, which is something that I wouldn't rule out.
The Welsh Government White Paper states that
'Any new arrangements should be drawn up in line with our principles of agreement and consent, working collaboratively with the UK Government and the other devolved nations.'
But I contrast that with the passage in the UK Government White Paper—if it hasn't been changed in the last 24 hours—which relates to state aid, which hails the fact that the UK Government spent just 0.3 per cent of GDP on state aid in 2016, which is less than half the EU average. Had the UK Government spent the EU average on state aid, that would have made an additional £8 billion available for investment and Wales could have expected something in the region of £400 million as a result.
So, it's clear that there's a significant difference of opinion, not just between Welsh Government and the UK Government and not just on the principle of whether state aid is devolved or not, but also on what one would do with it once we leave the European Union. So, can we have an assurance from the Cabinet Secretary that the Welsh Government won't sign up to any future inter-governmental agreement that cedes state aid rules exclusively to the UK Government and that, instead, any future agreement has to be based on shared responsibility and agreement? Because, of course, we will need UK frameworks and rules, and state aid is a good example of where those will be needed, by agreement.

Mark Drakeford AC: The Member makes two important points, really. First of all, he puts his finger on one of the ways in which those people who advocated Brexit misled the public in the arguments that they put. Because they always portray European Union state aid rules as some sort of straitjacket that prevents us from doing the good things that we would like to do. Germany has eight times the intensity of state aids of the United Kingdom and operates entirely within the European Union rulebook. So, the idea that, somehow, we were trapped into something that forced us to do things that we wouldn't have wanted to do, turns out, on examination, to be nothing like the truth.
I'm happy to provide the assurance that Steffan Lewis looked for in his second question. If there is—and I agree with him that there is very likely to be—the need for a framework operating across the internal market of the United Kingdom, we will not sign up to something imposed on us. We will expect to be at the table, we will expect to be part of those discussions, and we will expect to be in a position where the outcome is agreed between the component parts of the United Kingdom, not the result of one part alone.

The Conservative spokesperson, Nick Ramsay.

Nick Ramsay AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Cabinet Secretary, the Wales Centre for Public Policy has recently published its report on the Welsh tax base, which has raised a number of salient points about the impact even small changes to the tax system can have on taxpayer behaviour, migration and inward investment.
With regard to land transaction tax, the report highlights that, although there were only 45 LTT and non-residential property transactions over £5 million in 2015-16, they accounted for 43 per cent of total transaction value of Welsh LTT. The report also notes that just 10 fewer freehold transactions over £5 million in one year could reduce revenue by £7 million. Taking all that into account, we've asked you previously, and I ask you again: will you, at the very least, monitor the top rate of LTT in this regard within Wales and consider bringing it in line with England or Scotland if the economy does show signs of suffering?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, I'm happy to repeat the assurances that I gave the Member the last time that he asked me that question, and of course we monitor the impact of policy on transactions, and that where there is evidence that leads us to reach different conclusions, then that's what we will do. But LTT is now just over three months old, so, the evidence base at the moment is preliminary at best, and we will continue to see what the actual results of this on the ground look like, rather than speculating on what they might be.

Nick Ramsay AC: Cabinet Secretary, the report also showed the inextricable link between the Welsh economy and the ability of the Welsh Government to raise tax revenue in general. In particular, differences between the UK's economy and the Welsh economy have been starkly laid out: lower income, lack of high-skilled, high-paid jobs, lower productivity, and higher exposure to automation. All these things, I know, your Government is aware of.
I've raised this with you before, especially the apparent divergence between the economy Secretary's stance and yours. The economic action plan, on the one hand, mentions tax in passing just once, and yet we've repeatedly, on these benches, raised concerns about the 6 per cent supertax on commercial land transactions that could keenly affect further inward investment. You mentioned Brexit in response to Steffan Lewis earlier. Do you think at this time, with Brexit getting closer and being much more of a reality to us all, that now is not the time to be looking to have taxes like this on those very people in Wales that we're going to be looking to over the months and years to come to make sure that Wales's economy is stronger?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, it is a paradox, Llywydd, isn't it? It is the Conservative Party that argued the most strongly for fiscal powers to be devolved to Wales, and now the argument of the Conservative Party is that, having devolved them, we mustn't use them—that all we can do is to make sure that we don't diverge from what is going on across our border. You can't have it both ways. You either believe, as your party has preached, that powers should be devolved to Wales so that we can make decisions here, or you believe that no difference is possible across the border. We were prepared to sign up to your first proposition.
If the powers are here, the powers must be exercised here. The decisions about which the Member complains are the decisions that this National Assembly made, endorsed in the budget-making process, passing the regulations in January to give rise to them. I'll do what I said in my answer to his first question: having made the decision, we will monitor its effect. If there are lessons to learn, and if there are changes that need to be made, then that's what we will do, but we won't operate on the basis of a series of hypotheticals, where the actual evidence is barely a quarter old.

Nick Ramsay AC: That's a very interesting answer, Cabinet Secretary, because you're right: we did, on this side of the Chamber, as did the majority of AMs, support the devolution of tax powers to this place, and we fully believe in accountability. I'm pleased that the Conservative Government—the previous UK coalition Government—did actually go in that direction.
It sounds to me that what you're saying there is that you fully intend to raise taxes where you possibly can. Of course, having taxes devolved to this place doesn't simply mean that you put them up; it also means that you can keep them the same or lower them, but, of course, you will be getting the revenue here from those taxes.
You told the Finance Committee only last week that you're sceptical that a modest tax would have an impact on inward migration. That may be the case, but if there is a 1p increase to income tax to help the Welsh NHS, for instance, as an example; a 1 per cent to 3 per cent contribution of income towards social care on top; and a continued rise in council tax and other tax increases in Wales, I repeat what I said before: as we are running up to Brexit and there are economic uncertainties, even if you believe in the future that modest tax rises may actually be beneficial to the economy and improve public services, is this really the time not to be ruling out those rises? People need stability and businesses need stability. Surely, as finance Secretary, you want to work for the good of Wales and make sure that, in the future, any tax rises are done when you have that evidence base, which you believe in so strongly.

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, I said no such thing, in answer to Nick Ramsay's second question. I made no observations whatsoever about the direction in which tax changes might happen. I simply responded to his suggestion that we had to stay in line with the tax regime on the other side of our border. That is not what tax devolution is all about.
We will look carefully at the evidence. We will make decisions in the light of the circumstances at the time. The report to which he made reference in his first question, of course, suggests that there would be very little movement at the border if tax rates in Wales were to be higher than those in England, quite unlike the advice I'm sometimes offered by the Conservative benches here.

UKIP spokesperson, Michelle Brown.

Michelle Brown AC: Thank you, Presiding Officer. Good afternoon, Cabinet Secretary. Does the Cabinet Secretary agree that if the Westminster Government delivers on the Welsh Government's justifiable demand that Wales should not lose a single penny following Brexit, it should be the Welsh Government that decides which projects receive that support rather than the EU?

Mark Drakeford AC: I entirely agree with the Member that if the UK Government does what those who advocated leaving the European Union said would happen—that's a guarantee that Wales would not lose out by a penny—then the decisions that would be made as to how that money is best used are best made here in Wales. The First Minister has already given an undertaking that if money comes to Wales for the purposes of regional economic development, we will use it for those purposes. If money comes to Wales to sustain our rural economy, it will be used for those purposes. But, the specifics of that are best made here, rather than in London.

Michelle Brown AC: Thank you for that answer, Cabinet Secretary, and I agree with you that those decisions are best made here rather than elsewhere. Obviously, the Welsh Government and we in Wales have a much clearer idea of what Wales needs and what the Welsh people want, rather than a distant EU and the committees on which we only have three out of 350 members, such as the Committee of the Regions, yet your Government continues to advocate involvement in the EU, even if we have to enter into reciprocal agreements and obligations with, and therefore the priorities of, the EU as a condition.
So, as the Cabinet Secretary for Finance, aren't you obliged to work out the best way of funding the priorities of the democratically elected Welsh Government, which should reflect the priorities of the Welsh people, as opposed to the priorities of the democratically deficient EU? To continue to advocate involvement in so much of the EU following Brexit goes against what you said to my colleague Neil Hamilton yesterday, when you claimed that you respect and will deliver on the Brexit vote.

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, the fundamental difficulty with the Member's question is this, is that she blurs the line between the fundamental decision, which is to say that we are leaving the European Union, we will not be members of the European Union after the end of March next year, and the form in which we leave the European Union. It is possible to leave the European Union in a way that does maximum damage to our economy; that is well advocated by people in this Chamber whose prescriptions for Wales would leave us, as I say, with an economy between 10 per cent and 8 per cent lower than it is today, or we can leave it in a way set out in the White Paper that the Welsh Government and Plaid Cymru jointly published in January of last year. That policy offers a way of leaving the European Union that does not, as she suggests, turn our back on the decision of the referendum, but which mitigates to the greatest possible extent the damage that would otherwise be done.

Michelle Brown AC: Thank you for that answer, Cabinet Secretary. I'd remind you that you and the other remainers spent the entirety of the EU referendum campaign telling voters about the doom that would supposedly hit us if they voted to leave, and if we severed control of the EU over our affairs, yet they still voted to leave. They either didn't believe you or they considered that independence would be worth the scenarios you said would take place. Since then you've been treating the electorate, as other remainers have, as if you're thinking, 'Bless them, they didn't know what they were doing'. Well, I've got more faith in the intelligence and understanding of the Welsh voters and, therefore, I ask you: don't you agree that ending the control of the EU over the affairs of Wales and the wider UK is what the electorate want, and this is what you should be advocating and working to achieve?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, I'll just repeat, really, that the Welsh Government from the day of the referendum accepted the decision that was set out in the referendum. We have never quarrelled with the fact of Brexit; that was determined by people in a vote. Our focus is on the form of Brexit always, and I can tell her this—that when I knock doors in parts of my own constituency, where people undoubtedly voted in large numbers to leave, they will tell you that they did not vote for the sort of chaotic, self-harming form of Brexit that she and other people in this Chamber advocate.

Infrastructure Investment in West Wales

Paul Davies AC: 3. What are the Welsh Government's priorities for infrastructure investment in west Wales? OAQ52529

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank the Member for that question. Amongst our priorities for infrastructure investment in west Wales are the £0.5 billion of investment in the twenty-first century schools programme in the area, completion of 42 separate affordable housing schemes, the £50 million we intend to invest in improvements to the A40, and the delivery of the Cardigan integrated care centre.

Paul Davies AC: I'm grateful to the Cabinet Secretary for that response. Now, the Wales infrastructure investment plan's mid-point review highlights the allocation of £110 million from the Welsh Government Building for the Future programme to regenerate town centres across Wales. Of course, Milford Haven in my constituency has regularly been at the top of vacant shop rates in recent years, and so, given the historic problems in Pembrokeshire, could you tell us how this funding will actually be allocated across Wales, and what specific funding from that programme will be allocated to regenerate towns in my own constituency?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, the detail of that decision is not one that I make as finance Secretary; I make the money available to my portfolio colleagues, and then they make the decisions that Paul Davies refers to, and very important decisions they are. And I know that my colleague, the economy and transport Secretary, takes a close interest in the way in which we are able to use the funds that have been made available to regenerate town centres right across Wales, including west Wales. I'll make sure that the Member gets a note of the specifics to the question that he has asked me.

Simon Thomas AC: Well, before too long, the Government will receive the feasibility study emerging from the agreement with Plaid Cymru on reopening the rail line between Carmarthen and Aberystwyth. When the First Minister came to the Committee for the Scrutiny of the First Minister in Aberystwyth, he poured cold water over the idea of reopening the line, which was rehearsed in the Cambrian News editorial. But now, with the announcement made yesterday by Ken Skates on how little money we’ve received in rail investment in Wales, and given the fact that you are now having discussions to have access to funds flowing from the Government here to the Westminster Government, and vice versa, isn’t this an appropriate time to make the national case for reopening this rail line, and will you and your Government lead this battle to get that investment, which is well deserved but would also be properly invested in this area of the world?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, I heard what Ken Skates said in the statement here yesterday. I also heard what other Members had to say about the investment that we’ve not received here in Wales from the United Kingdom Government in our railway services. I do look forward to the report that we will receive about reopening the rail line between Carmarthen and Aberystwyth. There are a number of things that we have agreed to do to start to look at what can be done in the future, but we will have to await that study on the feasibility of the railway. But there is more than one report that we’re awaiting and we will have to take them together and then bring out the priorities that we will need to undertake, having looked at what we can and should do in the future.

Report on the Welsh Tax Base

Jack Sargeant AC: 4. What consideration has the Cabinet Secretary made of the Wales Centre for Public Policy report, 'The Welsh Tax Base: Risks and Opportunities after Fiscal Devolution'? OAQ52547

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Jack Sargeant for that question. The Welsh Government commissioned the report to which he refers and we welcome the contribution it makes to inform the debate on tax in Wales and to support the development of tax policy. The report adds to a growing body of work about Welsh taxes, including Professor Gerry Holtham’s recent report about paying for social care.

Jack Sargeant AC: I'd like to thank the Cabinet Secretary for that answer. The Wales Centre for Public Policy report, which the Conservative spokesperson Nick Ramsay also brought up, also highlights that increasing income tax in Wales would not be a simple matter, but it did suggest that it did present an opportunity to make council tax more progressive. One opportunity highlighted would be to reform council tax at the same time to create a holistic approach to taxation. Now, you know as well as I, Cabinet Secretary, that local authorities have had to make some very tough choices in recent years and not least due to the decisions made in the UK Government. Could the Cabinet Secretary just clarify that he is considering the report and such reform and whether any discussions will take place between himself and the Cabinet Secretary for local government on this issue?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, I thank Jack Sargeant for that. It's an important part of the report that says to us that we must think about Welsh taxes in the round and that we must be prepared to think about ways in which decisions made on taxes on income can be calibrated alongside decisions made about taxes on property. There are some very interesting parts of the report that refer to the trade-offs that there may be between the one and the other. So, I can certainly give Jack Sargeant an assurance that we are looking carefully at that, that I do discuss it with Alun Davies, and that there is a set of work in hand to look both at short-term changes we could make to council tax to try to make it less regressive than it inevitably is, and then to look at some more profound reforms of local taxation to see if there is, in a practical sense, something different that we could use instead of council tax. I hope that that work will be completed during this Assembly term and available to the next Assembly.

Mark Reckless AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Does the way in which income tax is being partly devolved to Wales skew the incentives for Welsh Government in a tax-raising direction, in that we have the revenue benefit of any increase in the Welsh rate of tax, but any offsetting reduction across the tax base due to changes in behaviour as people face higher taxes—between half and three quarters of that loss of revenue on that tax base—would be felt by the UK Government, which won't be taking the decision?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, that issue was well rehearsed, Llywydd, during the negotiations over the fiscal framework. The fiscal framework does pass certain risks to Wales. It does in compensation protect us from some other risks, and the form of devolution of income tax that we have—and there are many other models we could have had and others who argue that it should have been taken further—but one of the, I think, positive aspects of it in the short run at least, as we take on these new responsibilities, is that it does mean that we are not as exposed to some of the risks that we otherwise would be exposed to had we come to a different set of agreements in the fiscal framework.

The Education Portfolio

John Griffiths AC: 5. What level of priority is given to the education portfolio in deciding Welsh Government spending commitments? OAQ52531

Mark Drakeford AC: Thanks to John Griffiths for that. Allocations to the education portfolio receive a high priority in budget setting, but in an age of unrelenting austerity have to be considered alongside the need to invest in our health and social care services, in housing and in transport, in energy and the environment, to mention just a small selection of pressing needs.

John Griffiths AC: Cabinet Secretary, I do understand that it's incredibly difficult to allocate funding in this age of austerity and all the pressures that involves. Nonetheless, I do believe that education should have a bigger share of the Welsh Government's budget than is currently the case. I believe that would be very much in line with the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, because greater spend on education will equip our children to prosper in their careers and to have better health and better quality of life in general. I also believe that it's preventative spend in terms of lifelong learning. In addition, a report by Brian Morgan and Gerry Holtham looking at what works for economic development across the world found that the biggest single determinant of economic success was a high level of spend on education. So, with that sort of background, will you, in the future, consider whether education and lifelong learning should have a bigger share of the Welsh Government's budget?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, John Griffiths makes a persuasive case on behalf of education spend, and he's made it regularly in this Chamber in recent years. He will know that, on the capital side of our budget, the twenty-first century schools programme, band A and band B taken together, is the single largest investment that we make right across the responsibilities that the Welsh Government exercises, and that is a sign of the very high priority that we do attach to education and lifelong learning. Where revenue spending is concerned, where the auditor general's letter to the Public Accounts Committee confirmed that our budget has been cut by 10.5 per cent over the last decade, the choices are starker still. But I can assure him that, in making those very difficult decisions, the case he makes and the case that is repeated by the Cabinet Secretary with that responsibility is never overlooked.

Mohammad Asghar (Oscar) AC: Cabinet Secretary, the Assembly's education committee has highlighted concerns that the pupil development grant funding aimed at helping poorer pupils may not be delivering value for money in Wales. Given that tackling poverty is a key core aim of the Welsh Government, what consideration was given when setting the education budget to ensuring that the pupil development grant meets its aim of improving the attainment outcomes of pupils from the poorest backgrounds, not only to help their educational attainment but also their future health and well-being? Thank you.

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank the Member for the question. I agree with the committee that it is very important to have a focus not simply on inputs—the money we spend on something—but the impact that that spending has, and I can assure him that, in the discussions that I have bilaterally with all Cabinet colleagues during the budget-setting process, not only do we consider the amount of resource that we are devoting to any area but we look at the impact and the effect that that spending has too. If we come across programmes where we don't believe that the spend is having the impact then we look to see how those can be recalibrated. I am very proud of the investment that this Government makes through the PDG in providing for those pupils who come from the least advantaged parts of our communities. I want that money to have a maximum impact, and I know that the Cabinet Secretary concerned works very hard to ensure exactly that.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: I was very pleased that Plaid Cymru was able to achieve an additional investment of £30 million capital funding, as part of our agreement on the supplementary budget, to expand Welsh-medium education. By now, I have received confirmation that all local authorities in Wales have put in a bid for a proportion of that money. In fact, the total of applications is over £100 million. So, I would like to ask the Cabinet Secretary what that tells us about the demand that exists for creating investment in Welsh-medium education. What message does that send to you as Cabinet Secretary as you consider your budget for next year? Will you consider at least continuing with that type of investment in the coming year, if you’re not in a position to be able to increase it?

Mark Drakeford AC: The message that I draw from that is the success that we’ve had here in developing the numbers that want to access education through the medium of Welsh. That’s important, and it's a cross-party issue here in the Assembly that we've worked hard to promote.

Mark Drakeford AC: The Member will remember that one of the strongest cases for the additional £30 million upfront investment in Welsh-medium education is that it would free up resources in subsequent years so that we will be able to create a new stream of investment in the Welsh-medium sector, not just for the £30 million, but following it. So, I'm not surprised to learn that there was a greater level of application for the money than money in the fund, but because of the way that we have done it, it does mean that there will be opportunities not just in that year but in subsequent years, and I'm quite sure that those schemes that are not at the front of the queue when the decisions come to be made, and where the money may not be needed immediately—that we will also now look to see what we can do to go on investing in this sector, because that was what the money was intended to do.

Brexit

Leanne Wood AC: 6. What plans has the Cabinet Secretary put in place for a possible no-deal exit from the European Union? OAQ52556

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank the Member for that question. The damage caused by a 'no deal' exit from the European Union cannot be eliminated, but contingency planning is being carried out across the Welsh Government and with our partners in order to mitigate the impact of what would be a catastrophic outcome for Wales.

Leanne Wood AC: Yesterday, Labour MPs voting with the Tories ensured that a critical amendment to the trade Bill fell. The amendment guaranteed, if negotiations failed, that the most basic customs union would still be an option, protecting our steel and agricultural industries, Welsh jobs and wages. A 'no deal' Brexit now looks more likely than ever. European nations have been told to step up planning for a 'no deal' scenario and drug companies are stockpiling medicine for the same reason. Cabinet Secretary, I have twice asked the First Minister what the Welsh Government is doing to ensure similar measures are being put in place, and twice—rather irresponsibly, I have to say—the First Minister has said that it's not possible to put plans in place to mitigate a 'no deal' Brexit, yet you say here this afternoon that you have contingency plans. Given that there are two contradictory positions given to us from the Government, will you now commit to publishing a 'no deal' mitigation plan for the sake of Welsh jobs and wages?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, there is no contradiction in the position of the Government. The First Minister has said—and I entirely agree with him—that anybody who regards a 'no deal' Brexit as just another point on a continuum, and that you can plan away the downsides of that, is simply offering a false prospectus to the Welsh public. So, I say again: a 'no deal' Brexit would be catastrophic and no amount of planning can eliminate that catastrophe.

Leanne Wood AC: But you can mitigate it.

Mark Drakeford AC: But you can carry out contingency planning, and there's no contradiction between those two positions. That's what I said in my answer to the Member. She will have drawn some comfort, I'm sure, from what the auditor general said in his valedictory letter. He said that
'it is apparent that work is getting underway within the Welsh Government and many other public bodies across Wales to manage some of the more immediate challenges that the Brexit process and its continuing uncertainties are posing'.
So, it was apparent to the auditor general that that work is going on. I give her an assurance that it is. We discussed it in some detail on the floor of the Assembly yesterday. Those are plans of a contingency nature. There is no plan that can simply wipe away the effect on Wales of a catastrophic 'no deal' exit.

Mike Hedges AC: Can I talk about Brexit in terms of organisations that rarely get mentioned, namely local government? How is the Welsh Government helping local authorities prepare for Brexit, including the possibility of a 'no deal' scenario? Because local authorities don't often get mentioned when we talk about Brexit, but they will, in many cases, be at the front line when we come out.

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Mike Hedges for that question. I want to assure him that local government plays an important part in our planning and that it is very ably represented on the European advisory group by the leader of Swansea council, Councillor Rob Stewart, who regularly reports at that group about issues of concern to local authorities and action that is being taken. I was very pleased earlier this month to be able to confirm £150,000 worth of support for the WLGA from our £50 million European Union transition fund, and that's there to help local authorities in the vital work that they do in preparing for Brexit.

The Local Government and Public Services Portfolio

Mohammad Asghar (Oscar) AC: 7. What consideration was given to service charges by local authorities when setting the budget for the local government and public services portfolio? OAQ52533

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank the Member for that. Local authorities are able to charge for services where there is statutory provision to allow it. Authorities must carefully consider the use of charging to deliver quality services while remaining fair and providing value for money for local citizens.

Mohammad Asghar (Oscar) AC: Thank you very much for the reply, Cabinet Secretary. A reduction in public funding has given a greater focus on charging for services by local authorities. In November 2016, a report by the Auditor General for Wales concluded that the local authorities are not pursuing all options to generate income because of weaknesses in their policies and in how they use data and information to support decision making. What discussions has the Cabinet Secretary had with ministerial colleagues and others about implementing the auditor general's recommendations to relieve some of the pressure on local authorities' budgets caused by cuts in the Welsh Assembly's funding?

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank the Member for that. I'm familiar with the report to which he refers and a number of the recommendations that the auditor general made to assist local authorities in this area. He will be aware that the auditor general also said that it was important for local authorities to balance the need to raise additional revenue through charges with the impact that that might have on some sections of the community and, in effect, price them out of being able to use important local authority services such as leisure centres. So, it's a difficult balancing act that local authorities have to carry out in this area. Officials of the Welsh Government have been discussing the report and the way that it's being put to use by local authorities, and they continue to do that difficult thing—looking to raise revenue—to make good the cuts that his Government has imposed on us, while, at the same time, making sure that they do it in a way that does not disproportionately impact on certain sections of the community.

Finally, question 8—Siân Gwenllian.

The Business Rates System

Siân Gwenllian AC: 8. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on the Welsh Government's efforts to tackle any weaknesses in the business rates system? OAQ52557

Mark Drakeford AC: Thank you for the question. The Welsh Government is exploring a number of options for strengthening the non-domestic rates system in Wales. These include proposals for tackling avoidance, considering the frequency of revaluations, and reviewing the appeals system. We are also looking at the scope for more fundamental reforms in the longer term.

Siân Gwenllian AC: Some months ago, I had an opportunity to question you on the Government’s attempt to tackle the increasing pattern of the owners of second homes registering their properties as holiday lets in order to avoid paying council tax. As they are small businesses, they qualify for business rate relief in accordance with the Government’s business rate relief scheme. You said at that time that you would work with local authorities and the valuation office in order to gather data and to monitor this. Could we have an update on this to see what that data has demonstrated to date? Given that there is a substantial increase in the number of second homes in Gwynedd, for example, unless these processes are sufficiently robust, then we have to be proactive in order to ensure that the ratepayer doesn’t lose out.

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Siân Gwenllian for that question. I do recall the question that we had on the floor of the Assembly previously.

Mark Drakeford AC: After that, as the Member will know, I undertook to amend our tax policy work plan for this year, and it now includes a specific commitment to monitor the implementation of that legislation, to ensure that it is operating as intended and that it does not create opportunities for avoidance. So, that work is part of the tax plan; it is being undertaken. I plan to report in October, alongside the draft budget, on the work that has been carried out this year under the tax plan, and I will be reporting on the data that we've collected as part of that exercise.

I thank the Cabinet Secretary.

2. Questions to the Leader of the House and Chief Whip

The next item, therefore, is the questions to the Leader of the House and Chief Whip, and the first question is from Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Modern Slavery

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: 1. Will the Leader of the House make a statement on Welsh Government efforts to tackle modern slavery? OAQ52542

Julie James AC: Diolch. We are determined to do all we can to make Wales hostile to slavery. In April, we had the first prosecution in the UK for county lines using modern slavery legislation. This saw two men jailed for trafficking a vulnerable woman from London to Swansea to sell heroin.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thank you very much for that response. Modern slavery, of course, is an immoral crime, which is affecting some of the most vulnerable people in our communities and those who are most open to exploitation. I’ve had contact with a number of organisations in north Wales—Haven of Light is one of them—working to raise awareness and to support victims. I’ve had discussions with the local council, and had discussions with North Wales Police. I know that they have been very prominent in developing one of only four modern slavery units, and others are following their lead. Now, in the national modern slavery partnership meeting in Birmingham last week, I understand that there was great emphasis on working across statutory agencies, non-governmental organisations and business. So, my question is, simply: what steps are the Welsh Government taking to encourage that sort of collaboration across various sectors, which can make a difference in this area?

Julie James AC: The Member is absolutely right there. It's a hidden, complex and completely intolerable crime, against which we must work very hard. We are, of course, the first, and remain the only country in the UK, to have appointed an anti-slavery co-ordinator, and established the Wales anti-slavery leadership group to provide that strategic leadership and guidance on how we tackle slavery. That is the point of that. We absolutely accept the Member's premise that without working across the statutory agencies, we have much-reduced chances of actually finding and protecting the vulnerable people and prosecuting the people who put them into that position. And so it's absolutely about working with partners, but delivering consistent standards of anti-slavery training to almost 8,000 people across Wales. That is the exact purpose of that, in order to make sure that we have a consistent approach across all of our agencies that are engaged together in combating this terrible crime.

Joyce Watson AC: There is evidence of forced labour in hand car washes, and it's believed to be growing from 10,000 to 20,000 businesses in the UK, and many of those are unregulated. We know that the UK Government has launched a hand car wash inquiry last April, and the main goal is to look at, principally, environmental impacts and the regulations that govern hand car washes, but it is also going to look at how the UK Government is meeting its obligation to reduce human exploitation under the UN sustainable development goals. Leader of the house, will the Welsh Government consider launching a similar inquiry that focuses on the regulation of such industries, and their link to human trafficking and exploitation?

Julie James AC: It's a very interesting inquiry. We are co-operating with the Gangmasters and Labour Abuse Authority in their input into that inquiry, and of course we will be looking with great interest to see what the outcome of the inquiry report is, and to see what lessons we can learn in Wales. We have a very open mind about what might lead on from that, once they've completed the report.

Suzy Davies AC: Obviously, I acknowledge the Welsh Government's interest in this and, actually, the hard work of Joyce Watson on this matter for some considerable period of time, but I'd be quite interested in hearing a little bit more about specific activity between the two Governments, if you like, since Theresa May introduced this Act in 2015. As Rhun mentioned, many agencies are involved in identifying and helping other people identify what modern slavery is, but have you had any evidence yet that suggests that the co-ordinator is helping police forces here in Wales to tackle this crime in a consistent way—that's my main question—but whether that's then cascaded down, to use those dreaded words, to some of the agencies we were talking about earlier?

Julie James AC: Yes. We've been conducting, as I said in answer to Rhun ap Iorwerth and Joyce Watson—we have input into a large number of agencies all over the place, via the anti-slavery co-ordinator. And we've been doing the awareness raising and training to increase awareness, if you like. And one of the reasons that we think that that's working is that referrals are increasing—so, they've increased from 34 in 2012 to 193 in 2017. We've had 53 referrals in the first few months of this year, for example, and we believe that that activity is directly related to the increased working together, and the awareness raising, and the consistent approach that we've been advocating, if you like. So, it's essential: for example, we're working with partners to tackle the county lines criminals. I'm sure you'll all have seen reports in various press and media about that. The National Crime Agency and police are working with us to tackle online sex-for-sale—it's very hard to say—websites. So, absolutely, we work absolutely across the board, and this is not a crime that's confined within any kind of boundary—it's absolutely essential to work in as wide a way as possible, with all of the agencies who might become involved in this terrible crime.

Asylum Seekers

Julie Morgan AC: 2. What support can the Welsh Government offer communities to help raise awareness of issues facing asylum seekers? OAQ52549

Julie James AC: The Welsh Government is committed to fostering understanding and good relations between the various parts of our communities, which obviously include asylum seekers. We do this through many ways, including our funding for the Asylum Rights programme and our nation of sanctuary plan.

Julie Morgan AC: Thank you very much. A couple of weeks ago, I visited Llanishen High School, in my constituency of Cardiff North, to present a certificate as the first school of sanctuary in Cardiff, presenting it to students who are tackling the stigma faced by asylum seekers, both inside the school and outside in the community. What support and encouragement can the Cabinet Secretary offer to other schools who want to become schools of sanctuary? Because it seems such an important way of raising awareness and tackling, sadly, the stigma that there is out there about asylum seekers.

Julie James AC: Yes, it's a great project, and I'm delighted to see that sort of project spreading throughout Wales. We have a number of initiatives spreading through Wales. Actually, many are spontaneously arising, because the people of Wales are actually very welcoming, and very happy to have asylum seekers and refugees in their communities. We've had lots of communities coming forward to be part of the Croeso movement, for example.
Specifically, the new education curriculum, of course, supports children to become ethical, informed citizens of the world, and we expect that to include a complete understanding of other cultures. And as part of our nation of sanctuary plan, we have committed to an equality and diversity communications plan, and worked to get more balanced reporting. What we're hoping to do is pull all of those schemes together, so that a school, or any other part of our community, can come forward and become part of the sanctuary scheme across Wales, to spread it out. So, all of the publicity that we can give to all of the good-news stories like that, across Wales, help other people who want to become involved. So, it's a great project, and we're hoping to have many more in the future in Wales.

Darren Millar AC: Leader of the house, many of the people fleeing from countries where there's danger and war are fleeing persecution—persecution because of their religious beliefs, usually converts from Islamic backgrounds who convert to Christianity, for example, in some parts of the middle east. Faith groups and churches in the UK have provided sanctuary for these individuals, and given them a very warm welcome, including here in Wales. Will you join me in congratulating Tredegarville Baptist Church, for example, and their pastor, Phylip Rees, here in Cardiff, for the excellent work that they've done in welcoming refugees from Iran, from parts of Kurdish Iraq, and from Afghanistan, who've been fleeing that sort of persecution, to be welcomed into the community, and the excellent ties that they have developed with those refugees? What more can the Welsh Government do to promote that sort of welcome being available in other churches across Wales?

Julie James AC: Yes, of course, I'm very happy to welcome those programmes. As I've just said in response to Julie Morgan, we have a large number of heart-warming stories from across Wales, in all of our communities, and in all of our—you know, faith communities, and other communities of interest, and geographical communities, which shows that people reach out and want to include them. We've got some excellent stories about the benefit that asylum seekers who have become refugees—in terms of status—bring. And at the moment we're compiling some stories for the Home Office, both of the unintended consequences of the juxtaposition of some of their policies, but also of stories that we hope will change the media perception of asylum and refugee seekers—stories where people have benefited from communities such as the one that you describe, but who also have themselves contributed hugely to those communities, and enhanced both the cultural and social cohesion of their neighbourhood in so doing.

Bethan Sayed AC: A few weeks ago, I spoke at the Centre for African Entrepreneurship's Women in Politics event that they had, about trying to get more diverse candidates in the National Assembly. But a few asylum-seeker mothers came specifically to that meeting to meet with me because they were telling me about the fact that their children are wanting to go to Gower College Swansea in the new term, but because they can't get access to the education maintenance allowance, and they can't afford the transport there, they're potentially going to be disenfranchised from actually getting an education because of the fact that they can't afford it. Now, I was at an event where they had people like Malala and Nelson Mandela all on display, and it seemed ironic to me—we all know what Malala had to go through—that in Wales, in the twenty-first century, we may be stopping asylum-seeker children, who are actually women, from getting access to that education by virtue of the fact that they have no recourse to that public finance. So, please will you look into this issue, because I would not want to see us stopping those young asylum seekers while they're here to access the education that they rightly deserve?

Julie James AC: I couldn't agree with you more, Bethan Sayed. We would very much like to extend a number of public funds to asylum and refugee peoples, but, unfortunately, we come up against the Home Office system of 'no recourse to public funds' very often. I can assure you that we are currently actively working very hard to put a scheme together to ensure that, in Wales, we can give people access in a way that's compliant, of course, with the current law, but which also allows the access to happen. There is a raft of very complicated arrangements in place where funds are added to the list of 'no recourse to public funds', and we need to make sure that we don't unnecessarily have funds added to those because of the way we construct a scheme, whilst at the same time assisting all of the people who have come to live with us here in Wales to access the education that they, of course, rightly deserve.

Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople

I now call the party spokespeople to ask questions. Conservative spokesperson, Mark Isherwood.

Mark Isherwood AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Only yesterday, I received correspondence from a Flintshire constituent who had received a response from Openreach saying that they would not gain access under the first phase of the Superfast Cymru programme. Another one I also received, on behalf of a constituent, from Openreach, only yesterday, said:
'I'm very sorry that residents of Llangollen have not heard any news concerning the proposed fibre roll-out in their area. I have spoken with our local fibre team and sadly the delivery of fibre broadband across the area has now been halted.'
Both of them refer to the Welsh Government's successor programme. Why, therefore, have you not, thus far, provided the statement that you stated on 10 May, in response to my written question, you would be providing within the next month? You said:
'The procurement exercise for the successor project, which is planned to close on the 23rd May, is well underway, with a view to a delivery contract being awarded in late summer of this year. I will make a statement within the next month to update members'—
which should, therefore, presumably have been by 10 June.

Julie James AC: We have, of course, completed the very successful Superfast Cymru roll-out scheme, and as the Member knows, from the amount of correspondence that he and I have had, and a number of other Members in the Chamber have had, we have about 85,000 people who are not included in that, but the scheme has delivered to many more premises than we originally anticipated.
We have announced the successor project. It is currently out to procurement. I was very much hoping to be in a position by today to be able to give more details, Llywydd, of this, but, unfortunately, I'm not in that position. I hope to be in that position extremely soon.

Mark Isherwood AC: Thank you. Well, I hope you'll appreciate the frustration for the constituents who received a copy of your reply and have been waiting since 10 June, and have contacted me regularly asking whether we've had the statement yet.
On a separate matter, in May the Wales Council for Voluntary Action produced a report called 'Empowering Communities'—not directly within your brief, but this bit certainly is in your brief. It said that they've
'focussed on "place-based" or locality based communities, but different groups of people live within them: different genders, ethnicities, faiths, ages.'
And they said that 
'Recognising the diversity in and across communities—and building on the strengths this brings—should be at the core of community wellbeing policies. Equality is part of community wellbeing.'
In that context, and within your brief, how do you propose to respond to the comments in the valedictory letter from the Auditor General for Wales to Nick Ramsay, as Chair of the Public Accounts Committee, which referred to
'what has been conspicuously absent so far across the Welsh public service'
and the
'real opportunities to reshape services and re-design delivery models in ways which enable genuine transformation and place the citizen at the centre, through working collectively in ways which transcend our inherited organisational structures'?

Julie James AC: Well, of course, as part of our community cohesion plan, we do work very closely with our stakeholders and we are consulting on the new national community cohesion plan in the autumn that will, of course, have the intersectionality that Mark Isherwood I know feels very passionately about. We are working very hard to ensure that our forthcoming strategy fits in with the other strategies in that seamless way that the auditor general's been discussing.

Mark Isherwood AC: Thanks. Well, I hope you'll in that recognise that some of the people at the top who represent the barriers to sharing power will be made to recognise that this is about turning the power thing upside down and designing the system backwards, with the people as the starting point and not the afterthought.
My final question relates to play and sport. Sense produced a report a couple of years ago, a play inquiry, which said that early intervention through play is vitally important for children with multiple needs and their families and brings a wide range of developmental and emotional benefits.
Play Wales, quoting a further source, said that
'Enabling all children to play, and to play together, is about a benefit to the whole community. It is not about overcoming legal hurdles or making expensive provision for a small section of the community. If any child is prevented from playing then it diminishes the play experience of all.'
How do you, therefore, respond to the evidence that disabled children in Wales are too often being denied proper access to play areas, despite the negative impact on them, where equipment suitable for all children is available but too often isn't made available, and that there needs to be a duty on local authorities to provide equipment in play areas that meet the needs of disabled children and other children? Also, alongside that is the report, last week, from Sport Wales, which found that access to sport by disabled children and adults is perceived to be patchy in many areas across many sports, with accessible changing rooms and direct access to sporting facilities often lacking.
I know you'll agree with me that disabled children and adults deserve equal access to play and to sport. How on earth are you going to make that happen?

Julie James AC: I completely agree with Mark Isherwood. Obviously, the thing that we'd all like to see is that all play areas everywhere are accessible to all children. We don't want to have children who have to travel longer distances than any other child in order to access equipment that is the only equipment that's accessible to them. So, we are working very hard with Disability Wales, and in our framework for action on independent living, in our guidance to Disability Wales, and in a large number of engagement activities with disability groups to get guidance out as fast as possible about the redesign of any accessible areas, so that we do not have any exclusion of anyone no matter what their characteristics are. So, I completely agree with him that we need to do that.
In my overall plan for equalities, which is the four-year review that will be coming in front of this Chamber, Llywydd, in December, I hope to be able to cover off our future plans for the sort of inclusion that Mark Isherwood has just talked about.

UKIP spokesperson, David Rowlands.

David J Rowlands AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Leader of the house, as a former magistrate, I have seen first-hand the sometimes horrific consequences of domestic abuse. Could the leader of the house please outline the latest interventions being instigated by the Welsh Government to combat these crimes?

Julie James AC: Yes. We're just in the process of rolling out the implementation of our groundbreaking Act. We're actually, as we speak, in the position of rolling out the regional frameworks. We've been working very hard indeed with a large number of stakeholders across Wales, including, I think crucially, survivors of domestic abuse, to ensure that we get the guidelines and pathways properly put in place so that no matter where you disclose—no matter where the disclosure takes place—you are guided to the correct pathway that has the right outcome for you as a survivor, or as a potential survivor at that point, so that we can help people to get their lives back on track as fast as possible.

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Ann Jones) took the Chair.

David J Rowlands AC: I thank you for that answer, leader of the house. It has been stated by Welsh Women's Aid that victims of domestic abuse cannot leave the abusive environment because they cannot afford to do so. With the latest figures showing cases of domestic abuse in Wales rising by 23 per cent, can the leader of the house give us an indication as to the support available to victims who are caught in such a situation?

Julie James AC: Yes. We fund a variety of programmes right across Wales, but we are currently, as I said, working with a number of stakeholders to ensure that those pathways exist everywhere in Wales. I think, Llywydd, it is not the case that we have a completely ideal framework right across Wales, but, as part of our regional strategy and as part of our roll-out, and as a result of advice from our national advisers, we are hoping to put that plan into action, and we are on target in terms of the Act for enacting the national framework plans, and that will inform our spending subsequently.
I would just say, though, that we ought to be glad that the numbers are rising, because what we hope that that means, although we haven't empirical evidence of this, is that, of course, people are more prepared to come forward. What we don't want is to have it as a hidden crime where people don't come forward. So, we welcome the rise in numbers, as that indicates a rise in the number of reported incidents.

David J Rowlands AC: Again, I thank the Cabinet Secretary for that, and I do acknowledge the many interventions now taking place with regard to domestic abuse. But I'm sure you'll agree with me that refuges are a key element in getting victims out of abusive situations. What will the Welsh Government do to ensure that refuges in Wales are kept open? And if funding is channelled through local authorities in future, what measures are in place to mitigate top-slicing funds to facilitate administration costs?

Julie James AC: Absolutely, exactly as I said, there is now an onus on local authorities to produce regional plans, and the regional plan is a needs assessment, and so they must then respond to the needs assessment, which is the needs assessment of their area, and the funding follows. So, it's not just that we give them the money and then we ask them to just sort it out as they see fit; they've got to produce the regional plan, which tells us what the need in the area is and then we look to see that the funding is indeed spent in that way. As part of the new supergrant, which is what David Rowlands is referring to, there is a voluminous, I think it's fair to say, set of guidance that goes with that about what we expect local authorities to do.

The Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Siân Gwenllian.

Siân Gwenllian AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I want to talk about some of the conclusions of the ‘Rapid Review of Gender Equality 2018: Phase One’, which was recently published. The report draws attention to many areas where the Welsh Government needs to drive improvement and show leadership. One specific action that the report recommends is to tackle the low number of people who take advantage of shared parental leave within Welsh Government. The report specifically recommends the introduction of shared parental leave at the enhanced maternity rate to fathers who take a period of absence. Will you do this?

Julie James AC: Yes, I'm very much hoping that we can implement that recommendation in the report. I'll just, Deputy Presiding Officer, set out where we are. We've published phase 1 of the report as it is. We have yet to respond formally to it. We are looking now to see what we can take forward rapidly over the summer, or, in other words—I don't know what cliche I can use: low-hanging fruit, if you like—something that is pretty obvious that we can get on with, and then we'll have a medium and longer term plan for some of the, as Siân Gwenllian rightly said, more challenging aspects of the report.
I'm due to have a series of meetings with the Permanent Secretary—and I'm not in any way shirking this, I would just like to hasten to say, but obviously the terms and conditions of the civil service are a matter for the Permanent Secretary and not for Ministers—but I'm due to have a series of meetings with the Permanent Secretary around a range of items in the report, which are to do with civil service terms and conditions and so on, with a view to seeing what we can do. I'm delighted to say that, alongside the Assembly Commission, the Welsh Government has now signed up to the Chwarae Teg fair-play employer benchmarking, so, that should drive some of that forward as well.

Siân Gwenllian AC: Thank you very much, and we look forward to seeing that being implemented. Now, the report draws attention to many areas where the Government has not achieved what was intended, and the report does warn that equality is often seen as a tick-box exercise that doesn't influence policy. There is one part that is particularly critical in the report, where it talks about how,
'the current budget process and structure continues to act as a barrier to effective cross-government working on all issues, including gender equality. The budget process is not aligned to the policy-making process and budgets focus on financial pressures rather than impact.'
I will repeat that:
'The budget process is not aligned to the policy-making process'.
To me, that is a damning criticism of the way that the Welsh Government sets is budgets, and the way that it has been operating for many years. But, more importantly, what are you going to do to ensure that this changes, and changes immediately?

Julie James AC: Actually, as it happens, the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and I, just shortly before this session, attended the budget advisory group for equality, where we consult with them during the budget process. We had a spirited discussion there of the new integrated equality assessments and what we can do, as a group of people, to ensure that they are rolled out in a helpful way and not as a tick-box exercise. I have a helpful graph, Deputy Presiding Officer, that I can share with Assembly Members, about how we expect that process to work and what improvements it should bring. As part of that, we then discuss—because, as I said, we haven't responded formally to the report. When we do respond—. We discussed helpfully in that group what the group might do in order to move some of the issues forward when we do the formal response. So, it was a very helpful preliminary conversation, and, in the autumn, I'll be in a better position to be able to respond very positively to some of those.

Siân Gwenllian AC: The report also talks about the lack of ability within your Government to turn intentions into outcomes. It goes on to say that:
'Actions and objectives within equality plans, well-being plans and national policy more widely are felt by many of those we spoke to, to lack ambition and, based on an analysis of current Welsh Government policies, there is an increasing tendency to make broad, aspirational statements with limited actions, timescales and success measures to outline how these aspirations will be realised.'
I have to say that the statement, in relation to wanting to create a feminist Wales, does ring a bell there, doesn't it—that is, that they are 'broad, aspirational statements', but where are the actions emanating from that?
In terms of the best performing nations in relation to gender equality, all of them publish data and evidence regularly and accessibly, mapping out gender equality. Without actions or indicators that will promote gender equality in policies in Wales, it will be impossible for us to trace or to see the progress that takes place effectively, and it will restrict scrutiny.
Do you acknowledge that these are themes that we see time and again from your Government? We will, later on, be looking at the report of the low-pay inquiry that the committee undertook, and we also recently discussed, in terms of mental health and other subjects—this lack of data and lack of targets. So, can you show the way to the rest of the Government, by adopting quantitative targets and meaningful indicators in order to measure progress towards gender equality in Wales?

Julie James AC: Yes, I think there's much that I can agree with there in what Siân Gwenllian is saying. I don't agree that it's an issue across the board, but there are data issues in Wales. We struggle to uplift some of the national surveys in a realistic way, and although it's not quite on the topic that we're currently discussing, I hope it will be illustrative. For example, we haven't taken part in the race disparity audit that the UK Government did, even with the Welsh uplift, because the numbers that we would have got from that would have been too low to have been of any statistical significance. So, we're actively looking at the moment at what we can do in Wales to do something that is statistically significant, and very much in terms of our response to this early phase of the gender review, and then I hope in the action plan going forward, once we've got the second-stage process, will be how we get baseline data, what data's currently available, what resource we need to uplift that, because we will have to do that, because the UK data tends not to have enough of a sample in Wales to be significant, and then what we can do to create those targets, because I quite agree with her that, unless we have those targets in place, we won't have any idea whether our policy is or isn't effective.
Also, on the point of leadership, though, it's easy to be cynical, but if you don't state that you want Wales to be a feminist place, and if you're afraid to do that because of the cynicism, then I personally think you'd never get there. So, whilst I acknowledge the cynicism, I also acknowledge the vision, and I want to work very hard indeed to make sure that we do have an active action plan that is implementable and meaningful over, as I said, the short, medium and longer term to embed those processes.

Domestic Abuse in the Rhondda

Leanne Wood AC: 3. How is the Welsh Government tackling domestic abuse in the Rhondda? OAQ52555

Julie James AC: We continue to implement the commitment set out in our national strategy on violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence across the whole of Wales, as well as supporting the regional boards to deliver on their strategies at both a local and a regional level.

Leanne Wood AC: As a former employee and board member for Cwm Cynon Women's Aid, I've got first-hand experience of the seriousness and the impact of domestic abuse. Failure to provide support can literally be a matter of life and death, and the statistics for domestic abuse in my constituency are particularly shocking. That's why I was concerned to read about the delays to the implementation of the Violence against Women, Domestic Abuse and Sexual Violence (Wales) Act 2015 in the excellent report produced by Chwarae Teg just last week. Will you make solid assurances now that the Welsh Government is remedying this and the other failures that have been highlighted within that particular report?

Julie James AC: Since I came into this portfolio, we've had the new national advisers appointed, we've got the guidance for the local strategies published, and we've got a comprehensive communications campaign launched, which I know the Member is aware of—the This is Me and the Don't Be a Bystander campaigns being part of it, for example. We've got the consultation on regional commissioning guidance launched, we've got the consultation on a framework for engaging survivors launched, and we've got the roll-out of our 'ask and act' training for front-line workers.
We aim to consult on the draft indicators before the end of the autumn term, for the national indicators, and in future our annual reports will include progress against the national indicators as well as achievements to date on the delivery framework. So, there was a slow start, but I think we've accelerated now, we're back on target, and I think when we consult on the draft indicators before the end of the autumn term we will then be back where we should have been in the first place.

David Melding AC: Cabinet Secretary, research has consistently shown that better outcomes are achieved for victims and their children when an integrated approach is taken by the agencies, and we know from Government stats in Wales, England and Scotland that domestic abuse counts for at least one in 10 people who require local authority support for homelessness. Some of the charities in the sector report that it's a significant factor in up to a third of the cases they deal with, because the person is simply too terrified, really, to stay, but cannot also leave the home they're in. So, can you ensure that, in all the advice lines and agencies that are commissioned to give advice, critical attention is given to the issue of homelessness and finding homes quickly for people, for women and children, under this terrible threat?

Julie James AC: Yes, I completely agree with David Melding. I was very privileged to attend the launch of the Pobl Gwent roll-out, where registered social landlords are beginning to understand their role in tackling domestic abuse and have trained their staff to recognise the signs. This includes all staff—staff going in to do maintenance work and all the rest of it—to pick up the signs. They have an immensely helpful web portal part funded by the Welsh Government, which is actually available to anyone. If you want to look at it it's very helpful, just for you to be able to sit in your car afterwards and just run through what you can and can't do, when to ask for advice, and what other questions to ask—say you've forgotten your screwdriver and go back in and ask a question, or whatever. I'm delighted to see that being rolled out, and that is very much part of our framework and training, to enable that to happen across our RSLs. Also, we are working very hard so that we have a commitment in place, for example, that if you have a secure tenancy and you have to move to another part of Wales, we honour that. We're working very hard to ensure that we have reciprocal arrangements across borders, because the systems change quite radically, but we're working hard to make sure that we have reciprocal arrangements in place for mostly women who are fleeing. It's not always women, but it's mostly women who are fleeing that kind of domestic abuse.

The Equality Act 2010

Mark Isherwood AC: 4. How does the Welsh Government ensure that it is meeting the requirements of the Equality Act 2010 with regard to learning disabled young people and their families? OAQ52524

Julie James AC: We're committed to improving the lives of everyone and addressing inequalities. The Improving Lives programme, which we set out in our statement on 3 July, builds on good practice to drive improvements in supporting children and young people with learning disabilities to reach their full potential.

Mark Isherwood AC: Thank you. This month's 'Don't Hold Back' report by the Children's Commissioner for Wales specifically refers to the Equality Act 2010 and quotes the explanatory memo to the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014, stating:
'The Bill will promote equality, improve the quality of services and the provision of information people receive, as well as ensuring the right incentives for commissioners to achieve a shared focus on prevention and early intervention.'
How do you therefore propose to respond to the report's findings, highlighting the experiences of young people with learning disabilities and their families as they transition to adult services, that, although they found good pockets of practice across Wales, the main findings highlight a lack of support for families, difficulty in accessing services, and little say for young people in shaping their futures, which, as they say, contradict the aspirations of both the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act and the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015—two flagship Welsh Government policies?

Julie James AC: We're looking forward to receiving the children's commissioner's upcoming report on the impact of transitions. We're going to be committed to working with the children's commissioner to ensure the experiences of young people improve at the time they become adults and that will include, as the Member says, better multi-agency planning, providing clear information and support, ensuring that the young people themselves can play an active role in their own transition, improvements to transport, and meaningful employment opportunities.

Jane Hutt AC: Can I also thank the leader for the answer to this question, because I'm trustee of Vale People First, a self-advocacy organisation that is for and led by people with a learning disability in the Vale of Glamorgan? I was very pleased to attend an event in Barry with Andrew R.T. Davies to showcase the achievement of their Big Lottery-funded project, I Am Not Invisible. Will the leader of the house join me in commending the work of this unique organisation in my constituency, which is an important representative voice for people with a learning disability in the Vale?

Julie James AC: Yes, it's a great project and, of course, I am very happy to join with her in commending the young people who are part of the project. It's very much part of our strategy to ensure that young people have a voice and are able to express that voice in a meaningful way to inform our strategies and our roll-out plans, and I'm delighted that she was able to attend that programme just recently.

Digitising Public Services

Caroline Jones AC: 5. Will the Leader of the House provide an update on action the Welsh Government is taking to digitise public services? OAQ52537

Julie James AC: Certainly. Digital First sets out the steps needed to create the right environment for the delivery of effective digital public services. There are a range of improvements being made across and within all Cabinet Secretary portfolios.

Caroline Jones AC: Thank you for that answer, leader of the house. Councils across Wales are looking to artificial intelligence to take over some of the functions of their staff. Cardiff council are introducing a virtual assistant to handle queries from the public, and Monmouthshire council are introducing a chatbot for its online queries. A report by PricewaterhouseCoopers suggests that the move to artificial intelligence will see a large decrease in the number of people employed in admin and support services. Leader of the house, what assessment has your Government made of the impact that artificial intelligence will have on the public sector workforce?

Julie James AC: There are mixed skill levels amongst public sector workers, which does impact on their ability to spot digital service transformation opportunities, and also to use new services that have been delivered. So, we have a training programme across the public sector to upskill staff and we're working very hard with councils who have recently expressed a view around creating a cohesive digital leadership role for local authorities, with a view to upskilling the staff, not just because of the threat of artificial intelligence, although clearly that threat exists for lower level admin tasks in particular—it's something that's been happening for a good long while now, since the early 1980s—but also with a view to actively including transformation programmes to enable those staff to be freed up for front-line service jobs that are not impacted by AI, and there are a large number of those as well. It's something the workforce partnership council has a huge interest in, and I know, for example, that they're considering making improvements to the People Exchange Cymru online service for recruitment with a view to making it a portal for that kind of activity.

Angela Burns AC: Leader of the house, I'm regularly approached, as I know many Assembly Members are, by organisations that have got ideas about how they might be able to help to improve, digitise and streamline public services. Many of these organisations have proven track records throughout the rest of the UK and, indeed, in Europe, but they are finding it increasingly difficult to interface with the Welsh Government. I'm concerned that we're creating barriers, and there's a risk of us not being at the forefront of a digital revolution in public services.
What routes would you suggest as the best way in for these organisations? They do try to approach individual portfolio holders, but get stopped at the gate by officials. A 'not made here in Wales' mentality doesn't help us to become leaders or the best of, and we want to learn from other good examples throughout Europe. I am really conscious of the fact that, especially in health, there is an awful lot of very good work going on elsewhere, and we just don't seem to have a handle on it.

Julie James AC: I'm very happy to be the conduit into Government if anybody's experiencing that difficulty. Deputy Presiding Officer, I'm always astonished when I say this, but I'll say it again here in the Chamber: my e-mail address is julie.james@gov.wales. It's astonishing to me how few people take up that opportunity. I'd very much welcome contact from anyone who thinks they can improve public services.
My colleague the Cabinet Secretary for Local Government and Public Services and I are working very hard on those programmes. We're delighted, as I've just said, that there are proposals for the WLGA to establish a digital leadership function, which will enable that to co-ordinate. Via the workforce partnership council, as well, we have a direct conduit to all devolved and non-devolved public sector organisations that take part in the workforce partnership council arrangements, with a view to spreading that good practice.

Broadband in South-east Wales

Jayne Bryant AC: 6. Will the Leader of the House provide an update on broadband provision in south-east Wales? OAQ52548

Julie James AC: Certainly. The Superfast Cymru scheme has, to date, facilitated the roll-out of superfast broadband access to over 230,000 homes and businesses across the region, delivering average speeds of over 70 Mbps and investing over £63 million.

Jayne Bryant AC: Thank you. It was a pleasure to join you and the community in Michaelston-y-Fedw earlier this month for the launch of the village's ultrafast broadband hub. The community-led project is part-funded by the Welsh Government, and it's the first of its kind in Wales. It's been a real community effort, with residents digging chambers, laying ducts and fitting out communication hubs. The hard work has really paid off, and most of the village will soon have higher download speeds.
Michaelston-y-Fedw has been a real success, but I'm aware of several other issues with broadband speeds in other parts of my constituency. So, what's the Welsh Government doing to ensure that more households have access to superfast broadband and that the timescales are clearly communicated to people?

Julie James AC: Yes, it was a great scheme. It was great to be there, wasn't it, to see the enthusiasm for it? Deputy Presiding Officer, if I could recommend that to all other communities across Wales—it's a scheme that was completely underpinned by the Welsh Government voucher schemes, both Access Broadband Cymru and the ultrafast voucher schemes. The village crowdfunded a part of it so that they could raise the speeds to a gigabit. They're hoping to roll it out to 70 or so users. They're hoping to get a return of around £20,000 a year once it's fully rolled out to invest in community projects across the village and upgrade the entire area.
There's absolutely nothing not to totally love about the scheme. It was completely underpinned as well by my broadband team, who worked, as was acknowledged on the day, tirelessly with them to ensure that all of the hurdles that they encountered were smoothed for them. But, I have to pay tribute to the dedication of the people working on it, who really did work very long hours to bring it to fruition.
It's a scheme we'd like to see replicated, although there are many other models of it. We're happy to support such a scheme right across Wales. As I said earlier, in terms of the future, I'm very disappointed I wasn't able to announce something today. We worked very hard to try to do so, but it's not been possible. We hope to be able to do it in the very near future.

Equality

John Griffiths AC: 7. What progress is being made in achieving the Welsh Government's policy objectives for greater equality in Wales? OAQ52532

Julie James AC: The Welsh Government publishes an annual report on equality, which sets out the progress we have made towards advancing equality in Wales. It includes an update on the action we have taken to fulfil our eight equality objectives. The latest report is available on the Welsh Government’s website.

John Griffiths AC: Cabinet Secretary, we are lucky to live in a diverse Wales with many different ethnic minorities. There are, of course, issues of inequality amongst those communities and also with regard to the protected characteristics, and there is rightly a strong focus on those, but I believe social class is also a very important aspect of inequality in Wales and it actually cuts across the protected characteristics, for example, ethnic minorities and people with disabilities. There are particular issues, for example, with white working-class Welsh children in schools and a lack of social mobility. I just wonder what focus Welsh Government has on those particular problems, and that social class aspect to inequality.

Julie James AC: Whilst not a protected characteristic in its own right, John Griffiths is absolutely right: it cuts across all of the other intersectionalities, so anyone with any of the protected characteristics will also be impacted by social class. We know that the multiple inequalities heaped on top of each other make the barriers that people face very severe indeed. Whilst the UK Government's ongoing welfare reform and austerity measures really are hitting people very hard, we do continue to do all that we can to increase prosperity and promote equality across Wales. Creating a more equal Wales, where everyone has the opportunity to reach their full potential and is able to contribute fully to the economy, will inevitably allow Wales to be a more prosperous and innovative place. So, it's vital we continue to support and engage with people from the protected groups and from all socioeconomic classes to address the barriers to equality and inclusion.
Deputy Presiding Officer, I know that many of us in this Chamber share the sentiment I'm about to express. This is not about climbing out of your community; it's about enabling your community to thrive and you climbing inside and with your community, and the Welsh Government is determined to ensure that all of our communities thrive and prosper in that way.

Thank you very much, leader of the house.

3. Questions to the Assembly Commission

Item 3 on the agenda is questions to the Assembly Commission. The first questions this afternoon will be answered by the Llywydd. Question 1, Simon Thomas.

The National Eisteddfod

Simon Thomas AC: 1. Will the Commission make a statement on using the Assembly estate for the National Eisteddfod? OAQ52554

The National Eisteddfod will be in Cardiff Bay for the first time in a few weeks' time. I am very pleased to say that our estate will be a central part of the activities. The Lle Celf—the arts pavilion—will be in the Senedd, in the Neuadd, the Oriel and the Cwrt, and all the meetings in the Societies Pavilion will be held in our committee rooms. The learners pavilion will take over the Pierhead. I hope that as many Assembly Members as possible will have a chance to visit the Eisteddfod this year; it will be a very different Eisteddfod in the bay.

Simon Thomas AC: I thank the Llywydd for that response. I look forward to the Eisteddfod coming to the bay and to the Assembly and I particularly look forward to seeing this wonderful building that was built for the Welsh public being used for cultural purposes as well as political purposes. I always thought that this Chamber would make a wonderful Cylch yr Orsedd, but it appears that we haven’t gone quite that far. Now is the opportunity to show that an Eisteddfod without a fence, without a wall and without a charge for entrance will be open to all.

Simon Thomas AC: And I just want to urge everyone—. When I went to my first Eisteddfod, I could barely speak Welsh. It is an absolutely wonderful immersive experience, and I want to urge people throughout Wales to come to Cardiff, come to the National Assembly, be part of a magnificent experience and living a week through the Welsh language. Diolch yn fawr.

Well, may I just echo what the Member has just said, indeed, everything he’s just said? I greatly regret that we hadn’t thought of the idea of holding the Cylch yr Orsedd here in the Chamber. I’m sure it’s too late for me now to propose that to the Gorsedd. But this will be a very different National Eisteddfod. The people of Cardiff and people all over Wales will be able to be a part of this Eisteddfod without there being a fence, without there being a wall keeping people out. So, I do hope that as many people as possible will be able to take this opportunity to visit and to see the arts and the excitement in terms of the Welsh language here in Cardiff Bay.
The National Eisteddfod is important in whichever part of Wales it may be held. In two years’ time, it will be in Tregaron in Ceredigion and that is equally as important as the Cardiff Bay Eisteddfod, and, of course, it will also be going to Llanrwst next year. But, in a few weeks’ time, the National Eisteddfod will be here in the bay, and it is my pleasure to be the Llywydd and for us all as Members to be able to contribute, we hope, to the success of that Eisteddfod by contributing from our own pockets and giving our support, also.

Thank you. Question 2 to the Commission this afternoon will be answered by Commissioner Joyce Watson. Question 2, Julie Morgan.

Breastfeeding in the Senedd

Julie Morgan AC: 2. What action has the Commission taken to enable women to breastfeed in the Senedd? OAQ52550

Joyce Watson AC: Thank you for the question. The Senedd is recognised as a breastfeeding-friendly space, and we have signs on screens throughout the Senedd, at the entrance and in the cafe area that promote that. We have purchased a breastfeeding chair, and I'm sure the Member will be pleased to hear that, especially since she pressed us to do so. Following consultation, that has now been placed in the dedicated quiet room in the Senedd, which also has sensory toys. There is also a dedicated children's space in the Senedd cafe and all front of house staff have been informed of our family- and breastfeeding-friendly provision, so that they can direct visitors accordingly and make the experience, hopefully, a positive one.

Julie Morgan AC: I thank Joyce Watson for that response and I think progress is being made. I'm pleased that there is now a specially designed chair to make it easy and comfortable for mothers to breastfeed and that a designated place has been given, but I do feel that there should be more done to make mothers and the public aware that this is a place where breastfeeding is welcome. I know that Joyce Watson has said there are signs, but I feel that, if you were coming here to this Senedd and you wanted to know where you went to breastfeed your child, it wouldn't be immediately obvious. I feel that there should be more efforts made in that way. I don't know if she can comment on that.

Joyce Watson AC: Okay. The Commission staff are working on broadening the appeal of our Parliament and we are trying to encourage more diversity in the demographic of people who visit us here. A number of activities are targeted at families with young children and they're already programmed, and no doubt that will be the case when we host the eisteddfod here. So, linking those two things together and also putting it very firmly up there that we are a family-friendly place, who also invite women, if they so choose, to breastfeed within that space, is of critical importance. We know that when the weeping window sculpture was here we attracted more young families than was the case wherever else that had been. So, in terms of working on the agenda that you are talking about, I think that, whilst we do have some signage, it would be a good thing for us to have a look again at that and perhaps even to go back to those people that we engaged with when we decided where we would put the nursing chair and see if they have an opinion about where we might add signage so that people clearly do know. Because what we really want to be is a welcoming and engaging place to come and I think it's always wise to take the opinion of those people who want to take advantage of that.

Thank you very much.

4. Topical Questions

Item 4 on the agenda this afternoon is topical questions. The first topical question this afternoon is to be answered by the Cabinet Secretary for Energy, Planning and Rural Affairs. Lee Waters.

Lee Waters AC: 1. What assessment has the Cabinet Secretary made of the Auditor General’s decision to qualify the accounts of Natural Resources Wales for the third year in succession? 207

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. I was extremely disappointed to learn Natural Resources Wales's accounts have been qualified for a third year in relation to the sale of timber. I welcome the Wales Audit Office acknowledgement that the response from NRW has been constructive and there is clear leadership commitment to take action. I met this morning with the chair and chief executive of NRW to discuss the matter.

Lee Waters AC: Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. Last year, the Public Accounts Committee criticised NRW for giving a £39 million contract to BSW Timber in Newbridge-on-Wye without competition. It did not represent value for money but it was justified on the grounds that the firm would invest in a new sawmill, which would benefit the industry overall. They didn't deliver on that deal. We now discover that NRW has done it again. The Wales Audit Office now tells us NRW has awarded 59 contracts where there's no evidence this has been done at market price, and some contracts were awarded without tender. Twenty one of these were to BSW Timber, the same company that had reneged on the last deal. What is going on in NRW? To have their accounts qualified for the third year running is unprecedented and frankly outrageous. I'm struggling to think of an explanation for why this might be. Might it be corruption or incompetence? But it does appear that the forestry section of NRW is out of control; the internal audit controls are not fit for purpose. Where is the board in all of this? After the woeful performance before the PAC, the previous chief executive, Emyr Roberts, left, albeit with a large pay-off, which does stick in the throat. I'm encouraged by the auditors' view that the new CEO, Clare Pillman, has responded in a way that suggests that she does take the issues, at last, seriously, but what about the chair, Diane McCrea? Where has she been? How could she let this happen again? She was in charge last year. I think this should give us pause for thought about creating large organisations like this. If this was any other organisation—if this was a local authority, we'd be putting them under special measures. So, I'd ask the Cabinet Secretary—. I think this is an extremely serious situation. I'm really quite angry and baffled that this has happened for the third year running, and I'd hope she takes this extremely seriously, and I think there should be accountability from the senior leadership at board level and at executive level of this organisation, which does seem to be out of control.

Lesley Griffiths AC: I am completely in agreement with you that this is a very serious matter. I met first the chair on Monday to discuss her tenure, the report and NRW's response to it, and I am reflecting on that conversation. I absolutely agree with you that it is a matter of great concern.
You referred to the fact that there is now a new chief executive in place, and I mentioned that I, along with the Minister for Environment, met with the new chief executive and chair this morning. I believe, following my discussion with the chief executive, that it's very clear that she too is taking these issues very seriously. I think she's given a very strong leadership commitment to take action to ensure that this does not happen again.
You mentioned that it had happened three years in a row, and I absolutely share your concern and your anger.
I think the commitment of the chief executive is absolutely illustrated in a recent letter she wrote to Nick Ramsay, the Chair of the Public Accounts Committee, where she updated on the action plan to address the issues identified previously by the Auditor General for Wales and the subsequent report from the National Assembly's Public Accounts Committee, and that letter included confirmation that Clare Pillman, the chief executive, is reorganising the commercial services function within NRW, including the appointment of a head of commercial services. The chief executive has also appointed Ernst & Young to carry out an independent review of the key commercial business areas and governance arrangements. And I just do want to assure Members that I will be keeping a very close watch on this.

Nick Ramsay AC: There's not much I can add, really, to Lee Waters's excellent question. Speaking as Chair of the Public Accounts Committee, we are quite literally astonished, baffled—whatever description you want to give it—that the Auditor General for Wales has once again had to qualify the accounts of NRW for the third year running, and again on the basis of their transactions relating to timber sales, contracts, being irregular. We are disappointed that there is further uncertainty on whether NRW has complied with principles of public law, state-aid rules—the list goes on. The committee will be re-examining this issue during the autumn term to ensure that we are satisfied with the action being taken, and we're certainly going to monitor this.
We did hope that we wouldn't be—. Well, we assumed that we wouldn't be in this position again. It is, as Lee Waters said, quite extraordinary that we do find ourselves in this position. In terms of—. Well, I have two questions for you, actually, Cabinet Secretary. You said you had a meeting this morning, I think, with the chair or—

Lesley Griffiths AC: The chair and chief exec.

Nick Ramsay AC: The chair and chief exec. So, clearly, you're—that was the right thing to do. At any point during this process, during the last year since we knew the previous problems existed, had they run by you what they were doing? Had they alerted you to the fact that they were dealing with the same timber company that failed to build a sawmill before? And 59 contracts were awarded—well, why 59? Have they given you any explanation at all as to why those 59 contracts were awarded and what the nature of them was? Because I share Lee Waters's bafflement. It is very difficult for us as members of the committee, and I'm sure for other Assembly Members, to begin to understand in the first instance just what on earth is going on.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you, Nick Ramsay. I too had assurance from the previous chief executive that this would not happen again this year, so you can imagine how disappointed and concerned I am. I probably can't be any more specific about my annoyance in relation to this. I met the chair—what I said was I met the chair on Monday, and I met the chair and the chief executive this morning along with Hannah Blythyn, the Minister for Environment, where we did discuss matters around public law and state aid, because, clearly, those are two areas where there needs to be a focus and, again, I was reassured that the chief executive was taking this very seriously going forward. She's also strengthening the audit and risk assurance committee by appointing a non-board member with additional public sector governance and finance expertise also, and we have a planned recruitment going forward for the board. We have five new members that we'll be appointing this year also, which I probably should have said in my answer to Lee Waters.

Simon Thomas AC: I don't think I can add any more other than to say that I completely agree with what's been said by Lee Waters and Nick Ramsay. I said yesterday that I thought the governance of Natural Resources Wales was rotten and I had no faith in it: I repeat that just to get it on the record with you. I have no faith in the governance of this organisation at the moment. You know, making one mistake and a mistake carrying on for a second year you can kind of understand—it was a big mistake, mind you; heads should have rolled about that one—but then to do this on a number of contracts shows there's something fundamentally wrong.
Now, Lee Waters did mention corruption. I don't know whether that's true, but I've written to you with an evidenced case from a constituent of mine of how he believes a contract was constructed in such a way as to ensure that one contractor could win it, with Natural Resources Wales then paying extra on top of the contract because it had been done in the wrong way—so, the equipment was being bought separately, whereas my constituent had bid for it with the equipment as part of the contract—in other words, jobs for boys, or doing things for people that you know. I'd like you to reopen that correspondence that we've had because you, I have to be honest, gave me a brush-off and said my constituent should take it through the Natural Resources Wales complaints procedures. Well, of course he had—of course he had—and he's now taken it to the ombudsman and he's taken it to the BBC as well. But this is something seriously wrong, and these things don't happen through incompetence. You do it once or twice through incompetence. This is something that's much more fundamental. So, I want to push you even further than what you've just said. Really, can the chair continue? And, secondly, will you send in your own officials to examine these contracts, top to bottom, and make sure that every single one of them is not being done with any gifts and favours involved in them?

Lesley Griffiths AC: There were three additional questions there, which I'll answer. I'll certainly have a look at the correspondence again. Yes, I will be sending my officials in to monitor it. And I mentioned that I'd met with the chair on Monday, I discussed her tenure, I discussed the accounts, and I was reflecting on that conversation, and I don't think it's appropriate to say any more at this point.

Neil Hamilton AC: I hope that the Cabinet Secretary will be impressed that there is a cross-party consensus on this, not only from Lee Waters in the highly commendable way in which he phrased his question, from the Conservatives and Plaid Cymru, but also from UKIP, and, as a member of the Public Accounts Committee, I don't think I'm alone in saying that the evidence that we've received in the past from Natural Resources Wales has been deeply unimpressive on a whole range of levels. When Natural Resources Wales was formed, there were built into its structure perhaps many conflicts of interest that cannot be remedied—on the one hand, it's a commercial operation; on the other hand, it's charged with acting in the interests of the public—and I raised a case at First Minister's questions, unconnected with any of this, only on Tuesday last week about a contract that Natural Resources Wales has let in relation to BikePark Wales near Merthyr Tydfil, which is now restricting public access to public land for private interest and is purporting to fine people for riding on their cycle tracks without permission. So, there's a lot wrong with Natural Resources Wales, not just in terms of financial governance, but also in terms of the public policy implications that often surface in constituents' correspondence. So, can I urge her, along with Simon Thomas, to leave no stone unturned in unearthing the rottenness at the heart of this organisation? And, certainly, a complete change of personnel seems long overdue.

Lesley Griffiths AC: I certainly recognise the cross-party consensus. I don't think I can add anything to my answers to the other three Members who have raised questions. As I say, we have had a new chief executive. I'm very reassured following my conversation with her just how seriously she takes this. I will be sending my officials in and I will be keeping a very close eye on it.

Andrew R.T. Davies, briefly.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Cabinet Secretary, yesterday in First Minister's questions, we heard from the First Minister that, actually, the amalgamation of the three organisations that form Natural Resources Wales was a resounding success that the Welsh Government had instigated. You have highlighted a litany of failures on behalf of NRW here today, and we've heard from Members across the Chamber. Do you regard it as a success story?

Lesley Griffiths AC: I think there certainly have been some successes. I haven't highlighted a list of them. We were talking about one issue in relation to the accounts. As I've said, I absolutely can't express my disappointment and concern enough, and I hope, by the fact that I had the chair in on Monday, and I've had the chair and the chief executive in today, that Members will recognise the seriousness with which I take this. But I think there have been some highlights. Certainly, it's very difficult when you bring three organisations together, and I think there have certainly been issues—there have been issues around staff morale, for instance—that have made me keep a very close watch on it. I met with the chief exec and the chair regularly when I first came into portfolio. Obviously, it now sits within the Minister for Environment's portfolio; she meets regularly with them. So, I think there have been some successes, but clearly, this is not one of them.

Thank you very much, Cabinet Secretary. The next topical question will be answered by the Cabinet Secretary for Education. Lynne Neagle.

The Pupil Development Grant—Access scheme

Lynne Neagle AC: 2. Will the Cabinet Secretary provide an update on the Pupil Development Grant - Access scheme? 209

Kirsty Williams AC: Thank you, Lynne. This support is available for parents to apply for via their local authority. I'm very pleased that we've been able to introduce a new, more generous, and more flexible scheme ready for the start of the new school year.

Lynne Neagle AC: Thank you. I was pleased and relieved that the Cabinet Secretary has confirmed the replacement for the school uniform grant, and that this is an enhanced scheme that will provide help to more families. I was also delighted that Torfaen council, in recognition of the need to get the money out to families quickly, in readiness for the new school term in September, is not going through an application process, but are proactively identifying those families who need the help and automatically directing the funds to them. As you know, the cost of school uniform is a major stress for families, and I am concerned that other local authorities may not be as proactive as Torfaen has been. What steps will you take as Cabinet Secretary to ensure that all local authorities understand that this money needs to be available for families in good time before the start of the new term in September?

Kirsty Williams AC: Thank you. We have been working very closely with local authorities, principally through the Association of Directors of Education in Wales, to make them aware of their indicative allocations—they're only indicative because, of course, this is a demand-led grant—and to confirm with them the formal terms and conditions of that grant. We are also working with them to ensure that bureaucracy around applications in the scheme is kept to a minimum, and we will continue throughout the summer to use Welsh Government channels, as well as media outlets, to alert parents to the availability of this support.

Darren Millar AC: Thank you for your answer to Lynne Neagle. I think it is important that this is widely promoted across the country, and that we don't just leave it down to local authorities, particularly over a summer period when many families may be less able to communicate directly with schools about the availability of support. Can I ask you, Cabinet Secretary—? We have another budget round coming up. One of the problems with the budget round last time was that you didn't cough up about the fact that you were actually chopping the previous grant, and there was no transparency around that, nor was there a children's rights impact assessment undertaken on the changes in your budget that resulted in the previous grant being axed. Now, of course, we're pleased that you've rowed back, that you've done a u-turn on this, and that there's actually now something that is more generous available, and that can be used for other purposes than just the school uniform grant. But can you tell us—and give us some assurances—how your budget processes are stacking up for the budget that will be presented in the autumn, and can you confirm that there will be a children's rights impact assessment on every single budget line where it affects children and young people?

Kirsty Williams AC: Darren, I can confirm that we will be using, as I said, a variety of media channels over the summer to alert parents to the availability of this grant. Indeed, the most successful Facebook post on the Welsh education Facebook page in the last month has been the post that alerted people to the existence of this grant. That was shared more than any other post, and we will continue, as I said, to publicise the existence of the grant. You're right to say that it is more generous. It is available to those parents of children in receipt of free school meals entering into year 7, at a maximum of up to £125. Last year, it was £120. But, uniquely, it is now also available for those parents who've got children starting school. It is also available for a wider range of items that might be associated with taking up not only opportunities within school but also sporting opportunities, extra-curricular opportunities or perhaps equipment that children need to access for, for instance, a school trip, such as outdoor equipment that perhaps is quite expensive. I can confirm that as we work with my Cabinet colleague the Cabinet Secretary for Finance to finalise the Welsh Government's budgets, we will be looking to take every opportunity to enhance how budgets are portrayed to individual committees, and reviewing exactly how we carry out impact assessments on individual budget lines.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: The local authorities that I've spoken to are worried that this is all very last minute, and clearly that underlines the fact that it was a bit of a rearguard action to the scrapping of the school uniforms grant. So, I too welcome this u-turn from the Government. Local authorities have told me that you published your written statement outlining the proposals for the new scheme, but there was a delay then, in terms of receiving their offer letter and being clear about the terms of reference. As a result, of course, there's been a further delay in the system for them to implement their systems locally in order to promote and put systems in place for this scheme to work. I have to ask whether you regret the way that this situation has been arrived at. Why weren't local authorities given sufficient warning and sufficient time to get ready for this? Why wasn't it, for example, properly consulted upon before the announcement was made? Why was the scheme not ready to go, instead of being clearly what it is now, a last-minute rush job?

Kirsty Williams AC: Let's be absolutely clear: local authorities, via ADEW, were consulted throughout the month of May. I made my statement in this Chamber on 7 June. Individual directors of education were provided with an update on 8 June. By 29 June, all local authorities had received their indicative allocations and the criteria for the grant, and that was formally confirmed on 9 July.

Thank you very much, Cabinet Secretary.

5. 90-second Statements

We move on to item 5, which are the 90-second statements. The first up this afternoon is Andrew R.T. Davies.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer. The British Association of Physicians of Indian Origin—BAPIO—is a non-political national voluntary organisation. It was established in 1996 by its founder president, Dr Ramesh Mehta OBE, to support doctors arriving from India to work in our NHS. BAPIO Wales is BAPIO’s largest national division and, under the chairmanship of Keshav Singhal MBE, has proven to be the most active too.
Since its creation, our national health service has relied on international medical graduates for its success and stability. Indeed, there are estimated to be over 50,000 doctors of Indian origin serving in our NHS across the United Kingdom. These all make a significant impact on the health of the entire population of the United Kingdom, and that is particularly the case here in Wales. At one point during the 1960s and 1970s, almost 70 per cent of GPs in the Welsh Valleys were of Indian origin, and today, nearly a third of all hospital consultants in Wales are of Indian origin.
On Saturday 7 July, I joined members of BAPIO Wales at an event to mark the seventieth anniversary of our NHS and to celebrate the contribution Indian doctors have made. The event was held here at the Senedd, and it was a pleasure to see colleagues from across the Chamber attend. By making this statement today I, and I am sure many other colleagues in this Chamber, acknowledge the huge contribution that doctors from the Indian sub-continent have made to the NHS and will continue to make as the NHS here in Wales goes forward.

Suzy Davies.

Suzy Davies AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I'd like to begin by wishing a very happy fifth birthday to the Keep Me Posted campaign. The Keep Me Posted campaign was set up, as I said, five years ago to protect consumers' rights to choose paper bills and statements without charge or penalty. It's not an anti-digital campaign. It's about making sure that everyone is in the best position to control their finances. As energy suppliers, phone companies and others do more online, more of us have been informed that if we wish to continue to receive paper statements or paper bills by post, then we're going to be charged for it.
Whatever businesses think about saving money in administration by getting rid of paper bills, Keep Me Posted has found that people who get a paper bill, instead of one by e-mail, are 30 per cent less likely to contact the business or organisation's call centre with further questions. Just 29 per cent of people who receive a paper bill need a reminder to pay it, compared to 59 per cent of those who receive an electronic bill, so you have to ask: is that really cost-effective?
The right to receive paper bills and statements at no extra cost gives customers a better service and lowers the chances of people falling into debt, and that really matters if you're financially vulnerable or have cognitive difficulties or simply don't have access to the internet—something that was acknowledged by the Minister when I raised this a couple of years ago. It seems, of course, that it saves on hidden back-room costs for businesses and organisations as well. Some Members will have met the Keep Me Posted team at the information drop-in session a couple of weeks ago, but I hope you will all consider signing up to the statement of opinion on this issue if you haven't already done so. It's just landing in your inboxes, I think.

Simon Thomas.

Simon Thomas AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. The Tenby Museum and Art Gallery, the oldest independent museum in Wales, is also this week celebrating a birthday—its one hundred and fortieth birthday. The museum was established to display rare geological artefacts collected by the Rev Gilbert Smith and purchased by the town for £100—that's £11,000 in today's money. Over the years, the museum has won many national awards and has become one of Tenby's top attractions. There is still a strong emphasis on archeology and geology, but more modern exhibitions include those on the local history of Tenby, maritime history and piracy, and an excellent collection featuring works by, among others, Augustus and Gwen John, John Piper, David Jones, Claudia Williams, Nina Hamnett and Kyffin Williams. Currently, the museum is exhibiting a celebration of the Year of the Sea by Anna Waters and Dawny Tootes. For 139 years, the museum was staffed by a dedicated group of volunteers and only last year appointed its first paid curator. Situated at the heart of the old castle in Tenby, where the only court poem of Dyfed, 'Edmig Dinbych', says,
'Addfwyn y rhoddir i bawb ei ran'—
'Splendid in granting to each their share' in Joseph Clancy's translation—the museum shares the richness of our culture with everyone who visits. Thanks to all those over the years who have supported and maintained the museum and best wishes for the future.

Jayne Bryant.

Jayne Bryant AC: In 1915, Newport workhouse, known locally as Woolaston House, was taken over by the War Office. It became part of the Third Western General Hospital, which today is St Woolos Hospital. Earlier this month, a commemorative plaque was unveiled outside St Woolos by the Gwent branch of the Western Front Association. The plaque was created by the talented Newport designer Danielle Mayer. As we celebrate the seventieth anniversary of the NHS, it's another opportunity to show our gratitude to previous generations of doctors, nurses and hospital staff.
Special mention must be given to the women who worked in the hospital during the war years. They include the matron Katherine Gilchrist Wilson, members of the Territorial Force Nursing Service and voluntary aid detachments from the Red Cross and St John's. The running of the hospital not only required medical staff, but also general service VADs like storekeepers, cooks and cleaners, all of whom were vital.
Our community comes together in difficult times. Trains of wounded men were met at Newport station by local volunteers, giving them tea, cigarettes and fruit. I'm proud that, 100 years ago, the people of Newport came together to look after each other during one of the darkest periods in our recent history. While we must always remember those who fought and died in the great war, we must also remember those who saved lives.

Thank you very much.

6. Statement by Paul Davies: Introduction of a Member Proposed Bill—Autism (Wales) Bill

Item 6 on the agenda this afternoon is a statement by Paul Davies on the introduction of a Member-proposed Bill, the Autism (Wales) Bill. I now call on Paul Davies to introduce that Bill.

Paul Davies AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. As Members are aware, on Friday last week, I laid the Autism (Wales) Bill with the Table Office. Can I put on record my sincere thanks to Tom Jackson and his team for their tremendous support and guidance during the development of this Bill? Can I also thank NAS Cymru and the countless stakeholders who have helped make this Bill a reality?
This is primary legislation to help improve the lives of people living with autism across Wales, and those people are all around us: colleagues, friends, family. We need to meet their needs, we need to protect their rights, we need to realise their potential. In two consultation exercises and numerous meetings, the autism community has overwhelmingly made it clear that they favour primary legislation, expressing goodwill and support for a Bill. In doing so, they shared their stories and experiences with me. I’d like to tell you one such story, although I’m going to change the names of the people involved.

Paul Davies AC: A mum called Sarah told me about how her little girl would sometimes have meltdowns, how when it got too noisy, she would lose all control and would scratch at her own eyes so that Sarah had to try to restrain her, how her brothers didn’t understand why their sister sometimes hit out at them and why their mum wasn’t telling her off. And all the time that Sarah was dealing with all of that, and holding down a job, she was also fighting to get her daughter a diagnosis. She told me she had to fight for everything, and that it was so exhausting when you have to spend your day looking after a child who is pinching, head-butting and biting at you. Now, the good news is that Sarah’s daughter got a diagnosis of autism spectrum disorder, and that they are both now receiving support. They’ve got strategies in place that help them manage things. Her daughter has little flip cards that help her plan her daily routines.
I don’t want to suggest that many positive practices are not already in place. The problem is that while good practice in services for people with ASD is evident in some parts of Wales, in other areas services are poor, and waiting times, for a diagnosis in particular, are far too long. That’s why I’m introducing this Bill, because evidence from research, and the two consultations I ran, showed that services across Wales for people with ASD are inconsistent, and in some areas, inadequate. The Bill aims to promote best practice in autism services in all areas of Wales and to ensure that people with ASD and their families and carers are able to navigate them.
It is to the Welsh Government’s credit that it chose to publish and maintain an autism strategy that has secured some tangible service improvements. This Bill aims to build on those developments. It requires relevant bodies to comply with the strategy and associated guidance, ensuring consistent levels of services. And it provides a legislative framework to secure ongoing improvements and longer term service continuity.
It’s a Bill that is aimed at maintaining a governmental focus on the needs of people like Sarah and her daughter, regardless of whatever political and economic climates may arise in the future. For instance, the Bill requires the Welsh Government to publish an autism strategy and associated guidance, with which local authorities and NHS bodies must comply. The strategy and guidance will be subject to consultation and periodic review.
The Bill sets out requirements for data to be collected and published. This is to enable ongoing planning and improvement of ASD services. The Bill also recognises that some of the challenges faced by people with ASD, their families and carers could be helped by greater understanding about ASD from the public and service providers. Consequently, the Bill addresses the need for training and requires Welsh Ministers to undertake an awareness-raising campaign to enhance understanding of the needs of people with ASD by the public, employers and service providers.
In the interest of futureproofing, the Bill uses the definition of autism spectrum disorder in the World Health Organization's international classification of diseases. That means that if our understanding of autism spectrum disorder changes in the future, the Bill will change with it. The Bill also includes a power for its provisions to be applied in relation to other neurodevelopmental disorders. This power has been included to mitigate concerns that an autism Bill could inadvertently diminish relevant bodies’ focus on addressing other neurodevelopmental disorders. It would be for Welsh Ministers to justify, in bringing forward regulations for the Assembly’s consideration, whether the provisions of the Bill would be appropriate in relation to the needs of people with other neurodevelopmental disorders. Again, my underlying intention has been to anticipate the potential for issues arising in the future and ensure that this legislation is fit for purpose, not just now but in the years to come.
In summary, this is a Bill built for meeting the needs of people with autism, now and in the future, once and for all, ensuring timely diagnosis and better support across the country, no matter where you live, and increasing public awareness of autism and a wider understanding of the condition among us all.
Before closing, Deputy Presiding Officer, I'd like to thank everyone who has engaged in the two consultations I've conducted in the development of this Bill, and the hundreds of individuals, like Sarah and her daughter, who have spoken personally with me about its proposals. I am pleased that the overwhelming majority of responses have been very positive about the Bill, and that the Bill has been improved as a result of their input. I continue to welcome such input, and look forward to open-minded and thorough discussions in the course of this Bill’s legislative journey through the Assembly, and I commend it to this Chamber.

Thank you very much. Can I now call the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Services? Vaughan Gething.

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer, and thank you to the Member in charge for his statement and for the conversations we have had over a period of time leading up to today. The Welsh Government remains committed to supporting and improving the range of services available for children and adults with autistic spectrum disorder, their families and carers. Whilst Wales has led the way in the UK in developing policies to support people with autism and their families and carers, I remain acutely aware of the challenges that people do face in accessing high-quality care and support. I see these challenges not only as a constituency Member and as a Minister, but in some of my own personal contacts, and no-one can doubt the courage and the fortitude that people with autistic spectrum disorder and their families and carers show every single day. To witness it and the efforts that families make to making sure that people in their families continue to have a service and an opportunity is really humbling, and it's natural that everyone in this Chamber would want to do everything in their power to support them. So, I do congratulate the Member on the work he has undertaken over recent months and in bringing the Bill to this stage in the Assembly.
There are, of course, a number of questions that we'll need to ask ourselves over the coming months, and in particular whether this legislation at this time will further improve services and outcomes and experience for people. There is, of course, the alternative question of whether this legislation will have a minimal or potentially negative impact if it does take away the focus on service improvement measures that have been put in place in this Assembly term and we remain committed to.
As I set out in my oral statement last month, the Welsh Government can demonstrate practical steps that we have taken on improving autism services, backed by over £13 million of new investment, creating an integrated autism service across Wales. The situation, of course, is not perfect, but real progress is being made, and there is a risk to disrupting it. The annual report on the delivery of the ASD strategic action plan sets out the progress that we are making. To cement our future commitment, we will shortly publish a consultation on a code of practice on the delivery of autism services. We've had an autism strategy in place for over 10 years and there is absolutely no reason to believe that it will not continue.
I would ask the Member in charge of the Bill and Members scrutinising to consider some of the following points over the coming months: to consider how this Bill will add value to the commitments already being delivered through the existing strategy; what the response is to the concerns that have been raised by number of people through the consultation on the draft Bill that the legislation may privilege one condition over and above others; and to ask that the Bill proposes increasing expectations on our stretched statutory services by introducing waiting-time targets for assessment of 13 weeks—not only the evidence base behind that, but the balance of that risk against other aspects of the service, and whether they'll suffer, as resources would, understandably, be directed to assessment. Members of our ASD advisory group, the ASD diagnostic community of practice and regional integrated autism services have already raised their own concerns about this.
Is legislating for what is still a relatively narrow range of medical data an appropriate use of legislation? It seems unavoidable to me that that would, potentially, lock us into an approach that may need change as medical knowledge of care and treatment changes. I've heard what the Member had to say in his opening statement, but I think there's still a real risk of us, nevertheless, being locked into an approach we would want to change. Critically, why would the legislation enhance our ability to better tackle the core problem of growing or recruiting suitably qualified clinicians? And there are, of course, the costs of this legislation and how they're paid. Now, Members will also have received a joint briefing from the NHS Confederation and I believe four different royal colleges, setting out a range of questions to be asked during the course of the Bill as well.
To sum up, people with autistic spectrum disorder, their families and carers do deserve better services on a more consistent basis, and they deserve our support for them. In the Welsh Government, we believe we have a clear plan of action to do so, with the commitment and, indeed, financial resources to achieve that. There is, of course, a case, which Members will want to consider, for letting the new measures that have been put in place to take hold and to review progress rather than to legislate now. That is a choice for Members to make. But the Welsh Government will continue to engage constructively in the passage of the Bill and through the Assembly process. Our key question, though, is whether this Bill will improve experiences and outcomes, and that will guide our approach to the next stage. We look forward to hearing the evidence, seeing it tested and taking part in the scrutiny.

Paul Davies AC: Can I start by saying that the Cabinet Secretary and I want to see improvements in services, and we both want to see better outcomes being delivered throughout Wales? In the meetings that we've had together I believe that we both made that absolutely clear. We're on the same page when it comes to wanting to improve services for people with autism, but I believe, by introducing primary legislation, this is the only way to make sure that we actually put services on a statutory footing, and that we see consistency of services across Wales. I accept that measures have been introduced by the Welsh Government. However, what is clear is that the issues that were identified in the first strategy in 2008 are the same issues that remain now in 2018: diagnosis, data, support services, training, employment, housing, mental health—just to name but a few. That is what people are telling me about this issue—that those are the same issues that were actually being debated then, 10 years ago, and that is why we need primary legislation.
Now, the Cabinet Secretary, of course, mentioned his code of practice. The problem with introducing a code is that it can be revoked. It does not ensure a continued focus on driving and improving services, and this Bill will of course provide certainty going forward, because once a code is introduced, it can't be scrutinised, amended or improved, unlike a piece of legislation. My piece of legislation will go through the Assembly's scrutiny process, and the autism community, in the consultations that I've held, have expressed a clear preference for primary legislation. Successive consultations have shown that we need a Bill, not a code. I also have some concern as to the extent that a code would obligate local authorities and local health boards to follow its requirements, as opposed to having regard to its requirements. My Bill is absolutely clear: it will make sure that local authorities and local health boards are actually obliged to offer services in their local areas. That is the difference between this piece of legislation and your code.
Now, the Cabinet Secretary also mentioned costs. Yes, there's no getting away from the fact that legislation that improves services for people with autism spectrum disorder will cost money. However, I believe those costs are worth while, both for the individuals affected and that they will ultimately lead to long-term economic savings. For example, the Bill sets out that the autism strategy must require that a first diagnostic meeting takes place within the time frame set out by the National Institute for Health and Care Excellence. Currently, NICE's time frame for a first diagnostic meeting is that it takes place within three months of referral. The Welsh Government's target is that people wait half a year for a first diagnostic meeting. Reducing this waiting target of half a year will have costs, as set out in the explanatory memorandum to this Bill. Having said that, it's a false economy to think that there won't be costs associated with a person who has yet to receive a diagnosis. Without an accurate diagnosis, services are less likely to be as well tailored and effective as they could be, and many reactive costs will be incurred.
So, I would urge him to reconsider his position. I believe this is the best way in making sure that we have a consistent approach across Wales, by introducing a piece of legislation, because by doing so we will ensure that services are put on a statutory footing for the future.

Mark Isherwood AC: Can I thank Paul for bringing this forward? As chair of the cross-party autism group over many years, I know that this has been a primary call from the autism community at large. With huge numbers of people on the spectrum, their families, their carers and the professionals who work with them on the front line are calling for this in huge numbers.
I recognise that autism is neither a learning difficulty nor a mental health issue, and therefore falls between the two stools. Currently, there's blurring around the edges in consequence of poor services too-often experienced. I also know, from my own casework and my work as chair of the cross-party autism group, and I suspect many millions of pounds are being wasted getting this wrong, with pressure on secondary and statutory services, which should not be there, when most of this could be dealt with through effective co-working, co-production, early intervention and prevention.
We received a Welsh Local Government Association briefing ahead of this statement, which refers to the refreshed strategic action plan, believed to be the only strategy for autism spectrum disorder in the world, but that's something we also heard, for many years previously, after the initial autism strategy was launched. In fact, every time it was mentioned, that was the claim for credit, that it was the first, but we also know that the community told us it didn't benefit.
When I led the debate, which this Assembly voted for, in January 2015, calling for an autism Act, when the meeting voted for it, I referred to the meeting of the cross-party group the previous November in which the people attending, representing communities from across the whole of Wales, as well as a large group of Assembly Members, voted unanimously in favour of calling for an autism Act. Do you therefore agree with me that the evidence we then heard confirms the need for underpinning legislation, where we heard from, for instance, Gwynedd and Anglesey, who told us that diagnosis was improving, but post-diagnostic support wasn't available, and that an autism Act was needed to safeguard and strengthen services and ensure consistency of support? We heard from Bridgend about the hope that followed the autism strategy, but how it hadn't achieved what it could have, and there was concern amongst local stakeholder groups in Bridgend about exactly where autism fitted in.
When I led the debate here, which unfortunately the Government whipped their back benches to defeat, in October 2016, I also referred to evidence, for example, from Ystradgynlais, that people felt let down and angry that they'd had to fight so hard to get the support they need, and it was important that people with autism were no longer invisible to services; and, for example, from Carmarthenshire and Pembrokeshire, that the strategy promised to deliver so much that people are being pushed into further crisis. So, again, do you confirm your shared view with me that boasting about being the first is not the measure of success? The measure of success is how this impacts on the lives of the people it's supposed to support.
Do you agree that the need for this Bill and following Act is further emphasised by the judicial review proceedings relating to the failure to assess and then meet the needs of a young autistic adult in May of this year, which resulted in Flintshire County Council agreeing to provide a formal apology and make a damages award because of a failure to meet the requirements ofSocial Services and Well-being (Wales) Act regulations and codes, and that it reinforces the need for specific autism legislation?
Do you agree with me that a chart I've received from a group of parents of autistic children only yesterday, where high numbers of them identify school failure to identify a child's difficulties; health failure to identify a child's difficulties; agencies' culture of dismissing families, blaming, or threatening; no or inadequate liaison and joint working between statutory agencies; a family not informed of disabled children's right to advocacy by the local education authority—? There are pages more of this, with numerous parents who found that they've shared identical experiences. They're parents primarily in Flintshire, but also in Denbighshire. I received that only yesterday. Do you agree that this e-mail I received from a parent in north Wales yesterday further confirms the need for an Act?
'I'm in the process of finishing up corrections of the assessment and care plan, drafted by social services for my child. My aim is to show that they've either grossly misheard or failed to make accurate notes of what I've told them, or out and out omitted information and details that I have notified them about.'
I receive e-mails like that every single day.

Are you winding up, please?

Mark Isherwood AC: These and many more matters emphasise the need for an Act. My final point: will you confirm that the initial evaluation, the interim evaluation of the integrated autism service, if nothing else—

I'm sorry. Can you wind up, please? You've had over five minutes.

Mark Isherwood AC: Which is a passion, a very, very important issue, but I fully accept—

There are 30 minutes for everybody, and I've got a long list of speakers who I want to try and get in as well.

Mark Isherwood AC: Okay. The fact that that found weaknesses and inconsistencies in both assessment and diagnostic services of the integrated autism strategy, and a failure to co-produce, and a top-down approach, which has stifled the development of these—if we get that right because of the statutory underpinning, we can finally start delivering services and if the priority is money, as I saw from here, save money too.

Paul Davies AC: Could I thank the Member for his support? The Member has been tireless in campaigning to improve autism services throughout his time here, and he has done a wonderful job in raising these issues as chair of the cross-party group on autism. He's someone who has been advocating a bespoke Bill for many, many years so that we see the improvements required in all parts of Wales. His energy, his enthusiasm, his dedication, his commitment have actually been second to none. I've welcomed the invitation through the Member to address the cross-party group on autism, and it's given me a better understanding of some of the issues facing people living with autism.
I think the Member is absolutely right. We have received substantial and significant evidence, not just throughout the development of this Bill, but we have received significant evidence over the last few years that people want to see legislation in this area because they do believe that, by introducing a piece of legislation, we can underpin these services. So it is absolutely crucial, in my view, that we see this piece of legislation passed through this place, so that we make sure that services are put on a statutory footing, so that we make sure that the services are consistent across Wales. Because that's what we're hearing all the time—the inconsistency that some services are available, but in other areas, services are not available. By introducing this legislation we will make sure that there will be consistency of services throughout Wales.
The Member has given a number of examples and he has also given us a number of people's experiences where improvements have not been met, and that's why it is important that we actually get this right, and that's why it is important that we see this piece of legislation being passed by this place.

Thank you. Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I congratulate the Member for bringing this legislation before us. We as a party have believed for some time that an autism Act could provide wide-ranging benefits for those people living with autism, certainly in terms of encouraging swift diagnosis, tackling things such as waiting times, and also providing consistency across Wales. I am also very aware that there are stakeholders who have their doubts about the value of legislation. I regularly hear what the Government says. I hear those people say, 'Well, be guarded about going down this route. There will be people with other conditions who will then want specific legislation for themselves too.' But I do look forward to seeing the work that the committee will do in this area.
I would like to know—and I will focus only on this point—what the Member’s view is on one issue that I do think needs to be challenged, namely, this idea of autism as an illness or a condition—the medical model of autism, if you like. How does he think that legislation could change and challenge that perception? Because that perception of autism misses the point rather, in my view. I think we should perhaps be thinking far more in terms of neurodiversity. We should see autism, Asperger’s and so on as different ways in which the brain works. There are plenty of examples of how organisations or companies see particular characteristics, positive characteristics, in people whose brains work in a different way. GCHQ has been recruiting people who are not neurotypical because they analyse data in a different way.
I do think that legislation could assist to change attitudes in a positive way. There will be some on the spectrum who will be considered to have a disability and will be receiving support in those circumstances, but I think what we need to do is to recognise these characteristics and I think legislation can be useful in that area. There will be some people on the spectrum, having been identified as having a disability, who will be supported through equalities legislation. But, if we were to think differently and to consider neurodiversity as a particular characteristic within the equalities sphere, then that could also be positive in terms of changing how services are planned and how services are delivered. And I’m not convinced that the social services Act and the additional learning needs Act are sufficient in themselves to change the way we think about ASD in Wales. So, I do hope that the Committee Stage will look at that area, and I would be grateful to hear the Member’s view on the potential for this legislation to deliver this.

Paul Davies AC: Could I thank the Member and his party for their support for this Bill? I’m very pleased to hear that they will support the Bill. I do understand, of course, that he and his party will also be scrutinising the Bill over the months to come, but from what I’ve heard from him today it looks to me as though he supports legislation in this area.
He’s also right in terms of consistency. It’s very important that there is consistency across Wales. That’s what we haven’t seen, unfortunately, over recent years, because unfortunately we’ve seen gaps in services. So, it is important that we see that consistency, and the only way to have consistency, in my opinion, is to see this kind of legislation being passed in this place.
I think that it’s also right to look at this not as an illness but as neurodiversity. I do agree with him entirely and this Bill does make it quite clear that we have to raise awareness among everyone, the public as well, and this legislation is going to do that because, as part of the Bill, Ministers will have to ensure that there is an ongoing campaign to ensure that that awareness is raised among the public. So, I do look forward to dealing with the committee that he is a member of and look forward to the scrutiny that he will provide for this legislation over the months to come.

Caroline Jones AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd.I would like to thank Paul Davies for his continuing efforts to make an autism Act for Wales a reality. This Bill will help deliver what those on the ASD spectrum have been calling for for years—action to improve autism services in Wales. Action that the ASD action plan has, so far, failed to materialise.
The Minister has, on a number of occasions, denied that there is any need for this Bill, but it is clear that previous strategies and current legislation have not done enough to improve services for children and adults on the autism spectrum. And my casework is evidence of this. It should be a matter of national shame that, in many parts of Wales, there are no clear pathways to the diagnosis of autism, despite the roll-out of the integrated autism service.
I'd like to highlight a case that came to me. A young lady with autism, on the autism spectrum, was not allowed to go to the prom because she did not have 85 per cent attendance at school. Her attendance, becauseshe self-harmed, sometimes she simply couldn't face going into school; other times, she wanted to just be on her own. And I think that this is one area that really startledme, that the discrimination, because a child—well, a young lady—had tried hard with 79 per cent attendance to go to the prom and she was not allowed. So, if Paul's Act does anything, then, Paul, I hope it would highlight and abolish situations such as this.
As Paul Davies has already highlighted, this Bill would place a duty on every single health board to make sure that there is a clear publicly available pathway to diagnosis. The Bill will ensure that staff working in our NHS and the social care sector in Wales are better trained and better equipped to support those on the autism spectrum, and will help put an end to the gaps in the services.People on the spectrum receive services that are either focused on additional learning needs or on mental health provision, and many, unfortunately, fall through the gaps that exist between our health and education services.
It has been 10 years since the publication of the autism strategic action plan, and very little has changed for those on the spectrum. We are long past the need for words. I support the intention behind this Bill and look forward to ensuring its swift passage through the health committee.
Paul, can you expand upon the support this Bill has from the wider public? Did you get the impression that the Bill was not just preferablebut essential? There are those who say such measures are costly. Paul, has any assessment been made of the costs of not introducing this Bill? Finally, there are concerns that introducing condition-specific legislation will lead to calls for legislation for many other conditions. So, how would you answer those concerns?
I thank you once again for bringing forward this Bill. I look forward to undertaking detailed scrutiny and ensuring the Bill becomes an Act as quickly as possible. Thank you.

Paul Davies AC: Can I thank the Member for her support, and for her party's support for this Bill? She's right that, despite the strategy introduced 10 years ago, we are still seeing a lack of services for people with autism in certain parts of Wales.
She raises the point about placing a duty on bodies, and this Bill will actually place a duty on local health boards and local authorities to ensure that services are actually delivered in all communities of Wales. It's also, I think, important to say that this Bill will make sure that there is a clear pathway to the diagnosis of autism, and I'm sure she's had examples, and she's had constituents contacting her, where parents have been unable to get a diagnosis for their children. In my own area, in Pembrokeshire, unfortunately, I know of parents whose children have waited up to seven years before a diagnosis. That is totally unacceptable, and that's why we need change, that's why we need to make sure that we see this Bill passing, because this Bill will actually underpin those particular services.
She raises the point about support—the wider support for this Bill. I am in no doubt whatsoever that there is wide support for this Bill. I've run two consultations now over the last 12 months. It's been absolutely clear from those consultations that there is overwhelming support for this Bill, and they do believe that this Bill is absolutely essential.
She mentioned the costs, and I think I referred to costs earlier on when I responded to the Cabinet Secretary for health. Yes, there's no getting away from the fact that legislation that improves services for people with autism spectrum disorder will cost money, but I believe that those costs are actually worth while for the individuals affected and that they will ultimately lead to long-term economic savings as well.
The final point she raised was whether there's a risk that giving autism a special legal status could actually risk other conditions being demeaned. Well, the Welsh Government has previously published an autism strategic action plan, and I'm not aware of any evidence that was raised that this has actually resulted in inequality as far as that action plan is concerned.
The Autism Act 2009 is already in place in England, while in Northern Ireland the Autism Act (Northern Ireland) 2011 is in effect. Again, I'm not aware of evidence that either Act is known to have had a detrimental effect on provision for people with other neurodevelopmental disorders. The Bill also includes a safeguard against inadvertently diminishing relevant bodies' focus on addressing the needs of people with other neurodevelopmental disorders. It includes that the definition of autism spectrum disorder may include any other neurodevelopmental disorder prescribed by regulations by Welsh Ministers. So, Welsh Ministers in the future could actually do that.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Thank you very much, Paul Davies, for raising these important issues around people on the autistic spectrum, which are complicated. However, I'm not convinced that a Bill is the right response. This is not a party political matter, and we're going to be given a free vote, so—. I don't think it should be under any circumstances a party political matter. For example, the example given by Caroline of the young lady who was denied access to the proms—that doesn't seem to me that we need an autism Act; we need a very rapid review of the well-being policies of that particular school. I'm not in denial at all that people on the autistic spectrum or their families face very challenging issues to get the services that they require, but I'm not sure that an autism Bill is the way forward.
I bear in mind that the 'A Healthier Wales' document, which is the Government's response to the parliamentary review of the NHS, has an emphasis on ensuring that we have the team around the patient, ensuring that we have responsive services, we have patient-centred care, but, in addition to that, we're in danger of medicalising something that I think ought to be much more of a social model in response to this. We need all our schools and all our businesses to be autism-friendly in the same way that we would like them to be dementia-friendly. So, I have some considerable concerns about pushing for a Bill for one condition, when it's in danger of compartmentalising conditions into silos, because people on the autistic spectrum may, on the one hand, be nuclear physicists; on the other hand, they may have other conditions that disable them and challenge them. And the autism may or may not be the dominant presenting issue that they need support with. 
I absolutely understand that there is considerable room for improvement in the way we meet the needs of children and adults who are on the autistic spectrum, but I don't feel that we've necessarily given the autistic spectrum disorder strategic action plan and the delivery plan, which was only launched in November 2016, enough time to really say whether this is the right road to go down.
There's no clear treatment for this condition. Obviously, it depends very much on the specific issues; this is not about ensuring clinical guidelines are being adhered to. We need appropriate services to support the challenges faced by particular individuals. We clearly need to ensure that those who have most contact with individuals, particularly schools, are responding appropriately, but we need to ensure that there is zero tolerance of schools that push pupils off their rolls because they think they might impact on their exam performance. We need fully integrated, inclusive schools, and I would happily stand on the picket line to challenge anything like that that's going on.
I'm still struggling with whether or not there's been a rise in autism, or whether there's been improved diagnosis. It's something I'd be interested to get Paul Davies's view on. Clearly, were there to be a pattern of cause and effect that we could detect by collecting information through the register that local authorities are obliged to have for children, and we could oblige them to have for adults too—if there was to be a pattern around the diagnosis of autism and were it to be linked to environmental issues, we'd clearly be obliged to act on that. So, I think information is extremely important, but I have concerns about putting this into the straitjacket of a Bill when we already have a lot of obligations around the ways in which both local authorities and health boards need to respond, and I feel we haven't given sufficient time to ensure that those are being appropriately delivered and rolled out.

Paul Davies AC: Can I thank the Member for Cardiff Central for her comments? I'm sorry that she's not convinced that legislation is required. I will continue, obviously, to speak to her to convince her that this is the right thing to do over the next few months and I'm sure she will also be part of the scrutiny process. Now, she mentioned earlier that patient care should actually be at the heart of any service improvement, and, of course, this is what this Bill is all about. Patient care is at the heart of this Bill because what I'm trying to do is to make sure that services, going forward, are actually put on a statutory footing, which they are not at the moment, and that will obviously ensure that services then are underpinned going forward.
Now, she raises the point that this Bill could give autism a special status. Well, I could argue that the Welsh Government is giving autism a special legal status by looking to introduce a code, for example. Given that the Government is looking to introduce a code, then surely it doesn't believe there's a risk in giving autism a special legal status and creating inequality and demeaning other conditions either, because the Government is looking to carry out improvements and introducing measures at the same time.
You mentioned support for schools. I agree with you; we need to make sure that staff in schools receive the appropriate training. Again, that is included in my Bill: to make sure that staff who deal with people, children, with autism receive the right training. That is actually included in my Bill as well.

Lee Waters AC: Can I thank Paul Davies for attempting to address some of the concerns I've expressed about the range of neurodevelopmental conditions being addressed by this? I appreciate his efforts and I look forward to seeing how that is scrutinised as the Bill goes through to see whether or not that is going to be robust enough to address my concerns. Last Friday, I went to visit Serendipity Day Nursery in Pembrey, who were the first school in Carmarthenshire to achieve the learning with autism early years programme, which has been developed under the integrated autism service programme. I was very impressed by what they had done there, where they were creating an environment where they were supporting a child with autism who still hadn't had a diagnosis—because there's a very long wait in Hywel Dda for a diagnosis—but clearly exhibited signs of autism, but also, crucially, addressing the other children too and making them understand what difference is all about and how they needed to adapt their behaviour to create a supportive environment.
I think, in all of this—and I've thought a lot about the role of legislation in this, and I remain open to the possibility of legislation if the integrated autism service is not being seen to deliver, but I think really what we need is a societal response around the concept of neurodiversity. This is a spectrum after all. There's no magic bullet. Once you have a label, once you have a diagnosis, it doesn't mean you're going to be cured. It's about creating an environment where we appreciate that all of us have strengths and weaknesses and we accommodate that and we allow people to achieve their potential. It may be there's a role for law in that but, if it was that simple, we've already passed laws that should cover some of this stuff. The fact we feel they're not quite working does suggest that another law may not be the easy answer that we are looking for.
I'm aware that the National Autistic Society have launched a very effective campaign, but it should be recognised that the clinicians and professionals working with this condition are not of a unified view on whether or not legislation is the right approach. They're very discomfited to say that in public but I've spoken to a number who are not comfortable with the idea of an autism Bill and they don't think it's the right use of resource or priorities or focus. I think the Cabinet Secretary, to my mind, made a persuasive case in that, if there is finite resource in the system, surely we're best directing that at improving the service rather than developing legislation and all the rigmarole that goes around it.
That said, the integrated autism service is still not fully rolled out. It doesn't exist in Carmarthenshire, and there are still teething problems. I spoke to one practitioner just this morning who pointed out to me that there is a real problem they're concerned with where children with associated learning diagnoses are being turned away from the integrated autism service and exist in some kind of no man's land—they're told go back to child and adolescent mental health services because they have a specialist condition, whereas, in fact, it was CAMHS that tried to divert them away from CAMHS to the integrated autism service in the first place. So, I think that's an issue that I'd like the Cabinet Secretary to look at. I think there are still teething problems as this new service beds down. And I think we can all agree that that's what we want—it's the ends. We can discuss the means; it's the ends that matter, and I still think there's some persuading to do to convince all of us that a piece of legislation is the way to do that.

Paul Davies AC: Can I thank the Member for Llanelli for his comments? We have had several discussions around this piece of legislation. I'm grateful that he remains open-minded about introducing legislation, so I suppose my job over the next few months will be to persuade him that this is the right thing to do. And I understand what he's saying, that he believes, perhaps, that the law—introducing legislation may not be the way forward, but I believe that it is the way forward. We need to ensure that services going forward are underpinned. I mentioned earlier that we have been, obviously, discussing the autism strategy that was introduced in 2008, and I don't want to rehearse what I said earlier, but we are discussing the same issues now that we were discussing 10 years ago. And I believe that the only way that we can actually ensure that we see service improvements is by introducing legislation, by making sure that services are put on a statutory footing so that those services are consistent across Wales and so that we don't have any gaps in those services. You know as well as I do—you've had constituents contacting you, as I have had, who,unfortunately, are unable to access services. We must make sure that those services are available. We must make sure that local health boards and local authorities are actually obliged to deliver these services, and this is what this Bill will actually do.

Thank you very much, and apologies to anybody else who wanted to take part; we've overrun by 20 minutes on this statement.

7. Statement by the Chair of the Public Accounts Committee on the outgoing Auditor General for Wales

A statement by the Chair of the Public Accounts Committee on the outgoing Auditor General for Wales. I call on Nick Ramsay to deliver the statement.

Nick Ramsay AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Later this week, on 20 July, Huw Vaughan Thomas CBE will complete his last day in office as the Auditor General for Wales. I'd like to take this opportunity to reflect on his tenure as auditor general and to express thanks to him for his contributions to public life.
Huw was appointed auditor general in 2010, bringing with him a wealth of experience and expertise from his long and successful career across the public sector. He's proved to be an excellent appointee. Huw took to his role with many challenges ahead, starting with the difficult circumstances he inherited following incidents at the Wales Audit Office prior to his appointment. One of his first challenges was to present proposals to strengthen the governance and accountability of the organisation and oversee a period of organisational and cultural change. This he did with determination, and, following an internal review, he introduced a set of new governance arrangements, which restored public confidence and transformed the culture at the Wales Audit Office.
This period of change within Huw's term of office also saw the implementation of the Public Audit (Wales) Act 2013, which further strengthened and improved the accountability and governance arrangements of the AGW and the WAO, while preserving and protecting the independence and objectivity of the AGW. The introduction in 2014 of the Wales Audit Office board further strengthened governance of the WAO and even up until most recently Huw has been overseeing significant changes in culture and working practices, including recent investments in data analytics. As Huw comes to the end of his career, he has planted the seeds for the next generation of auditors, with investments in finance trainees and apprenticeships, inspiring maybe a future auditor general. During his term of office, Huw has been at the forefront of improving public services and securing value for money for the taxpayer. His role as auditor general has been crucial and influential, the driving force and heart of good governance and accountability. Under Huw's leadership, during times of renewed austerity and increased focus on public finances and challenge on how that money is spent, he has delivered.
Huw has always championed the importance of independent public audit in supporting effective scrutiny of the Welsh Government, not just in holding the Government to account, but also providing vital insights and supporting improvements. As auditor general, Huw has overseen the publication of numerous hard-hitting reports. These reports have shone a light on poor governance and the inefficient use of public money, and I specifically refer to some of Huw's most influential reports: in 2011, his special inspection report on Anglesey County Council, which resulted in commissioners being sent in by the Welsh Government to take over the operation of the council—a first for the UK; his report in 2012 on AWEMA, which, together with other audit reports, prompted wholesale changes to the Welsh Government's management of its £2.6 billion annual grants expenditure; his joint review in 2013 with Healthcare Inspectorate Wales of the governance arrangements at Betsi Cadwaladr UHB, which was a precursor to the health board being placed in special measures; his 2015 report on the regeneration investment fund for Wales, which sold public land at a significant undervalue, potentially losing the taxpayer tens of millions of pounds; and his first public interest report on an NHS body in 2017 in relation to Cardiff and Vale UHB's mismanagement of a consultancy contract.
Such reports, although sobering to read, have been crucial in identifying areas that need strengthening and driving forward improvements to Welsh Government decision making and how public services are delivered. The importance of this cannot be understated. This independent audit is supported through parliamentary scrutiny by the Public Accounts Committee, which has worked closely with Huw over his term of office to maximise the impact of his work in holding the Welsh Government and other relevant organisations to account. Huw has been a constant source of support and advice to the committee, enhancing our work, and, increasingly, AGW reports have been used to inform the work of other Assembly committees, an excellent example of which is the Finance Committee's consideration of reports on fiscal preparedness.
In more recent times, Huw has also been pivotal to the implementation of the future generations Act of 2015. The Act requires the auditor general to report on the extent to which public bodies have applied the sustainable development principle to the way they set their objectives and the steps they're taking to meet those objectives. Huw has recently published his year 1 commentary report on how public bodies have responded to the Act, which identifies a number of emerging good practices across Wales for others to draw upon. The hard work and commitment demonstrated by Huw has been recognised with him being awarded a CBE in the 2018 Queen's birthday honours for services to public audit and accountability in Wales, and we extend our congratulations to Huw on this special achievement.
This recognition of Huw's outstanding contribution to public life consolidates a lifelong commitment to public life. He's been an auditor general who has not been afraid to say it like it is when necessary, and he leaves office with an excellent record, having served the people of Wales as auditor general for the last eight years. Huw, you've led with integrity and will leave a lasting legacy of renewed public confidence in public audit and accountability. We wish you well in the future. Diolch yn fawr.

Adam Price AC: It’s my pleasure, also, to rise to thank the auditor general for his service. It is characteristic of him, to tell the truth, that he’s innovating, even in leaving, because I think he’s the first one of the auditors to propose a farewell letter that provides, in one place, an overview of the landscape that he has been observing over the last eight years. It is very useful, and it’s very scathing at times. There are references to some of the reports that have pointed to poor governance, but it is interesting to see that the WAO is one of the most important places that drives innovation. We don’t traditionally associate auditing with innovation, but the best practices team has been driving that agenda. The only other example I can think of is Brazil's court of accounts, where they also have an innovation laboratory, and maybe that’s greatly needed there.
The points that the auditor general makes in the letter are quite interesting in terms of the deficiencies he points out and in terms of our state, although we're perhaps not falling into the same kind of trouble as Brazil. But there is a reason for us to listen to the voice of the auditor general, because he does point out the lack of radical thinking, the fact that we can’t think innovatively enough and that we tend to think in terms of short term issues, rather than thinking in the long term, and that there is an overemphasis on efficiency rather than in looking more broadly and more purposefully at reshaping our public services in a more comprehensive way. There is an overemphasis on structures rather than outcomes, and then the tendency of course to repackage problems rather than tackle them at a foundational level. There's enough analysis.
He also served on the Williams commission. We all know what the problems are. Excellent strategies, and not such a great disagreement among the parties—the truth that dare not speak its name in terms of values, perhaps. But how can we translate those objectives into policies that are going to deliver? The auditor general has done us a favour, even in saying farewell in terms of setting out the challenge that is how we in this Parliament can raise our horizons and start to realise some of the objectives that we all share. Thank you.

Nick Ramsay AC: Thank you, Adam Price. I know very little about auditors in Brazil; it does sound a bit like a film, doesn't it? So, I'll leave that for other people to comment on.
There's going to be very little disagreement, I sense, in this statement. Adam, you've cited the auditor general's role in innovating and driving the agenda forward, and you're totally right. I think before Members go on the Public Accounts Committee—it's a little bit similar to finance, in this respect—I think they do think it's going to be a very dry subject, and that auditing is something that a certain type of person does in an office somewhere, or wherever it might be, out in the field. Of course, the reality, as you know, and I know, and previous chairs of PAC know, is that, actually, the reality is quite different. You're right; Huw has had a role in terms of driving the agenda forward—innovating, a key word—and a role of leadership. So, the job of the auditor general is something that, I think, has clearly changed over the years and will change in the future, but he does leave a legacy there of which he can be rightly proud.
We often talk about this place—initially the Assembly and now as it transforms into a Parliament—in establishing a new future for Wales. It's not just down to us in this Chamber here and the public; there are certain key figures who, throughout time, can be cited in the development of Westminster as being key, and they will be cited here. I've no doubt at all that in the future, people will look back and they will say that Huw's role as an auditor general came at a key point, and he didn't just transform the organisation of the Wales Audit Office, he also will have a role in transforming Wales as well.

Mike Hedges AC: I welcome the opportunity to say a few words on the retirement of the auditor general, Huw Vaughan Thomas. I've been a member of the Public Accounts Committee, or a substitute member, since 2011. To me, the outgoing auditor general had two great strengths, which I hope Nick Ramsay will agree with me on: knowing what the key areas to investigate and report on were, and proportionality in his response. If anybody follows the auditor general's reports, the auditor general's office produces many each year, but it's actually about identifying the key ones, going into them in detail, and reporting back and taking them before the Public Accounts Committee, because if the Public Accounts Committee received all of them, they'd spend an hour each week just receiving and accepting. So, it's the proportionality in what to deal with and highlighting major failings of Government departments—Penmon fish farm, Kancoat, Powys Fadog, the Circuit of Wales—projects that could never have succeeded and that should have been picked up by the civil servants at the very earliest moment as projects that were incapable of success. The failure to do that—. The auditor general has brought those to the attention of Welsh Government, which I hope will work in the future—that people will cast a critical eye over projects and whether they actually can work or not. Many projects will fail, many good projects will fail for all sorts of reasons, but if the auditor general leaves us with something, it's that people cast a critical eye over projects and say, 'Can this project actually succeed?', and when the answer is 'no', then those projects don't get taken forward and money is not spent on them. Can I just finally wish Huw Vaughan Thomas a long and happy retirement? I've enjoyed seven years of discussions, not always agreements with him, but always something that I think I've learnt a lot from, and I hope he's enjoyed.

Nick Ramsay AC: One certainty of life on the Public Accounts Committee is that Mike Hedges cannot leave it. He always ends up leaving and then coming back at some point, and I think you're probably one of the most experienced Members on that committee now, Mike.
You made some very valid points. In true Mike Hedges style, I rattled off a long list of successful reports the auditor general gave, and you've completed the list, actually, with a list of the public accounts reports that we've done on the back of the auditor general's reports, such as on the Circuit of Wales and a long list of others. But you're right, it is about casting a critical eye, and one of the reasons why I've enjoyed being Chair of public accounts so much is that it allows you to get away from the traditional political-type arguments that people expect us to have in this Chamber, and we rightly have, and it takes you into a cross-party area where we are not being critical of the Government because they are them and we are us, we are doing it because we are trying to highlight—trying to provide that critical eye that you spoke about and cast light on areas that have failed and then enable and allow the Welsh Government to improve those areas, either directly, if it's the Welsh Government that's gone slightly off the path, or if it's another organisation that is related—. That's one asset of the Public Accounts Committee. I know that we've had some witnesses before us over recent months and they've confessed to being terrified. We don't aim to terrify them, but I think it is the very idea of being in front of a public accounts committee, whether it be here or in Brazil or in Westminster, wherever it may be—it does carry a certain gravitas to it.
Working with the auditor general and his office has been a great privilege for me, and I'm sure I speak for Darren Millar, and previous Chairs who've worked with Huw. He has provided a robustness that has uniquely complementedthe committee and allowed us to move forward as a committee and as an institution, and, as I said in my previous response to Adam, hopefully he will allow Wales to move forward a little bit too in terms of efficient spend of public money and delivering what the people of Wales expect from us.

The Llywydd took the Chair.

Mohammad Asghar (Oscar) AC: I'm very grateful for this opportunity to say a few words in tribute to Huw Vaughan Thomas on his retirement as the Auditor General for Wales. I have served on the Public Accounts Committee for the whole time since Huw's appointment in October 2010. In that time, I have been impressed by his commitment to the role, his pursuit of excellence and his dedication to his duties. His experience, gained us a variety of Government roles in a number of distinguished public appointments and in the private sector, made him uniquely placed to be Auditor General for Wales.
In his time, he has never shied away from the challenge of helping organisations become more efficient and effective in delivering public services. These include the Welsh Government. His reports into issues such as the Welsh Government's relationship with Pinewood and its initial funding of the Circuit of Wales project, which my colleague Nick Ramsay has already mentioned, highlighted serious deficiencies in administration and accountability. If properly addressed, these reports will have lasting beneficial effects on achieving value for money. I believe Huw Thomas's term as auditor general will be defined by the legacy he has left behind and its impact on the public sector. He has raised the audit bar—the quality bar—to such a high level that it will be a tough act to follow. Thank you, Huw. You have done a wonderful job for the last eight years for this nation. All that remains is to wish Huw a long and happy retirement, and to welcome Adrian Crompton to this important and challenging role, to follow in his footsteps. Thank you.

Nick Ramsay AC: Running out of accolades now—[Laughter.] I knew I shouldn't have mentioned Mike Hedges as being the longest serving, because obviously my colleague Mohammad Asghar has been on the committee a long time as well.
Yes, your points are well made. Over the last two years, since I've been Chair of the committee, we've looked at a number of different areas. The Circuit of Wales is an obvious one. Kancoat, I think, was mentioned by Mike. And in all that time, Huw has given me as Chair, the Members, but also the committee clerks a lot of support as well. It is a tough act to follow, and the next auditor general doesn't need to be like the last auditor general—doesn't need to be like Huw. It is a role that—. I know, from my discussions with Huw, he has told me you take it and you make what you want from it. There are certain key levels that you have to reach within that job, but at the same time—. It's also, of course, worth pointing out: it's an interesting mixture, because you're the auditor general but you're also the chief executive of a very important organisation within Wales. So, it's not an easy job to follow. We wish Adrian Crompton the best in taking up the cudgels there. But it's worth pointing out Huw has not just been respected by people here; he's also got a wider respect. I've visited other audit offices and auditor generals across the UK—and, indeed, we speak to them from across the world—and he's very highly regarded. I have no doubt at all that once you've relaxed a bit, Huw, then you will move on to other things, and I know you've had a very diverse and interesting career, and I'm sure that in the future you will still have much to give to Welsh life.

Neil Hamilton AC: I'd like to add my few poor words to the eloquent encomiums of those who have spoken in this debate hitherto, and they're very genuinely meant. It would be very easy for a debate of this kind to degenerate into empty formality, but this is very much the opposite. I think that Huw Vaughan Thomas has been an outstanding public servant, not only in this office of auditor general, but in the many other roles that he's performed in the course of a long and distinguished career of public service.
Auditing, famously, is for those who find accountancy too exciting, but to be auditor general is a different thing altogether, and Huw famously started his time in office by saying, 'I'm not an accountant, but I have experience of being an accounting officer', and the two roles, of course, are very, very different. He has been, I think, an outstanding success as auditor general, starting on what we might have called a bit of a sticky wicket. He had to sort his own office out before he could start on anything else, and after a very unfortunate series of errors in his own department before he took office, he had to impose the kind of financial rectitude upon the audit office that he has tried to impose on all other arms of Government ever since.
He has been a firm hand on the tiller, and has steadied the ship, and in the course of the last seven or eight years, I think that he has transformed the audit office in Wales, and I think he has shown a depth of vision here as well, not just in the sense that he's applied a minute scrutiny to the accounts of Government departments, but also because he has exercised his power of choice in a very good way, and has concentrated upon, I think, some of the bigger issues that needed to be drawn out of the way that a huge amount of public money is spent in Wales, to the lasting benefit of the taxpayer and, indeed, good government in general.
Because I was running out of interesting reading material, I actually read the 2011 report of the Public Accounts Committee, when Darren Millar was the Chair of it, on the problems of the Wales Audit Office itself. That said, right at the very beginning of Huw's tenure of office, he was forthright, open and transparent, and that is the principle upon which he has conducted himself in his great office in the whole time he's been there. He has spoken truth to power, and there is no task, I think, more vital in a democratic system, because all Governments of whatever persuasion at times think that they have a kind of inviolability and that they can do no wrong, or little wrong. It is very important that the cross-party consensus that Nick Ramsay referred to should sometimes cause them to think again and to draw themselves up.
It would be tedious to go through the long list of public offices that Huw Vaughan Thomas has held, but I think it's an important element of his experience that he was the chief executive of two local authorities before he became the auditor general—in Gwynedd and Denbighshire. He chaired the Big Lottery Fund in Wales as well, and he had experience in Government departments in other parts of the United Kingdom. He's served on organisations like the Parole Board for England and Wales. He's got a vast breadth of experience, as well as a depth in the areas that we're talking about today. So, I think that we should salute him for his success in his office, and for the inheritance that he is handing on to his successor. He is a hard act to follow. Nobody is, of course, indispensable, but nevertheless I think he will be remembered as one of the great auditors, not just of Wales but also of the United Kingdom, and the whole people of Wales thank him for his service.

Nick Ramsay AC: 'The great auditors'—how do I follow that? I stand to be corrected, but I think it was Tony Blair who once said we cannot change our country without first changing ourselves. I might be wrong, but I think it was back when he was starting out and he first became Labour leader. I think the point you made about what the auditor general inherited with the Wales Audit Office as it was and the reputation that it had—clearly, it needed turning around for the good of government, for the good of Wales, for the good of everyone, and he achieved that. He first of all showed that the Wales Audit Office could meet the challenge and get on with the job of scrutinising everything else.
Yes, we do salute the outgoing auditor general, and we recognise that the next auditor general will have that tough act to follow. I think one thing is clear: yes, we've done a lot of hard-hitting reports over the last few years, and I know that Darren Millar and previous audit Chairs have also had their role to play in earlier reports, and that job is not going to get any easier—let's not pretend it will. The Assembly now has been with us for 20 years. We're looking at the transformation of this place into a Parliament, and it's going to become increasingly important for the Wales Audit Office to step up to the mark as well and renew itself.
It's interesting that Huw Vaughan Thomas leaves at a time when we have the situation here with the multiple leadership elections going on in the different parties. So, currently, the parties here are in a process of renewal and rejuvenation, which is so important to all parties, and so important to government.
I'm sure that Huw will rejuvenate himself once he's left the auditor general's office, and will very much appreciate the rest and a change of life. We've got to look to the future now. We've got to make sure that we get on with the job that we're tasked with, and it's not just a question of criticising the Government when we feel they've done wrong, it's a question of appreciating where Government gets it right as well. We have, of course, the great advantage on the Public Accounts Committee that we get to speak to the officials, not just the Minister—it's not just the Cabinet Secretaries, it's not just the headline, but it is what lies beneath that. It's the area that doesn't often get the publicity that it needs, and it's our job on the Public Accounts Committee, and indeed, of course, the other committees in the Assembly, to make sure that over the future months and years to come that light is shone on areas of public life that don't always get it, and we all work together to try and make Wales a little bit of a better place.

Simon Thomas AC: Thank you to Nick Ramsay for bringing this statement forward on behalf of the Public Accounts Committee today, which enables me, on behalf of the Finance Committee, to endorse the thanks expressed to the auditor general. Although he works mainly with Nick's committee, of course, the governance of the auditor's office come to the Finance Committee, and we have very much appreciated the willingness of Huw Vaughan Thomas to collaborate with us, and the way in which he has facilitated that work. For a second there, when you were talking about regeneration, I thought that Huw was going to become some sort of Doctor Who and regenerate in some alternative form. But, it’s not quite that situation. But, he has certainly cast light where light needed to be cast and has ensured that our democracy here works far more successfully.
Just to remind ourselves that Huw as auditor general is one of the few lead officials within public service in Wales that we as an Assembly appoint. Therefore, it is appropriate that we officially put on record our thanks to him. He has left a legacy for the Finance Committee. He has audited under the systems governing his operations and decided that legislation needed to be improved to facilitate the work of the next auditor general and of the office in future. Therefore, he has left a legacy for us to work with too. But, the main thing to do and to say today is something that I couldn’t have done in the Parliament that I was once a Member of, and that is to turn to somebody in the gallery, who isn’t a stranger to us, and to refer to him in personal terms and to thank Huw Vaughan Thomas for all of his work as Auditor General for Wales, and to tell him, 'Don’t be a stranger to this Assembly from now on either.'

Nick Ramsay AC: When people ask me to give them a solid reason why we should have more Assembly Members, I often cite the fact that not only do I chair the Public Accounts Committee and have that role of looking back, but of course I sit with Simon Thomas on the Finance Committee with the job of looking financially forward. I'm trying to look both ways at once sometimes, which wouldn't happen in larger institutions. And of course I've spoken about public accounts, but it was the Finance Committee that had the valuable role of recruiting the new auditor general, and I sat with Simon Thomas on the interview panel—it seems a long time ago now—to make sure that—

Simon Thomas AC: It was snowing.

Nick Ramsay AC: I wondered why it seemed so long ago. Yes, it was a totally different weather situation then.
But, yes, you're quite right: it's as we discussed during that process. This is an important role. That cannot be overstated. I think I said 'understated' in my initial speech; I meant 'overstated', of course. It cannot be overstated, and it's really important that the process, not just the people involved, but the process of audit itself moves on and develops. It wasn't that long ago, of course, that the Wales Audit Office came into existence, compared with other audit bodies across the UK. So, it's still a young body, but as I said before, it will have a very increasing role.
I've been very grateful to Huw Vaughan Thomas for the support he's given me and the committee clerks during my time as the Chair of public accounts, and I'm convinced that he leaves a legacy of which he can be proud, and which stands us in good stead for the future.

Darren Millar AC: I just want to pay my tribute as well to the work of Huw Vaughan Thomas for the eight years that he served as auditor general. Six of those he spent with me as the Chair of the Public Accounts Committee, and I have to say that he was always extremely professional. He maintained absolutely his independence, and of course he pulled no punches in the reports that he published. Many of those reports would regularly hit the headlines, as they have done since.
I think it's testament to his work that the committee was able to undertake a number of reforms as well in the last Assembly, as a result of the sound advice and the wisdom that was given to us by the auditor general in terms of adapting our own working practices. I can recall many a meeting in different parts of the UK when the committee went to meet with audit committees up in Scotland, in the Republic of Ireland and in Northern Ireland, and it's fair to say that the respect that was there amongst his counterparts in those legislatures was extremely high in terms of the regard in which Huw was held.
And, of course, it is important to point out that for much of the decades of public service that Huw has given to the nation of the UK and this nation of Wales, the biggest proportion of that has been here in our country. On behalf of the people of north Wales and my own constituents, I want to put on record Huw's contribution as chief executive of Denbighshire for a number of years—a local authority that had its challenges during his tenure there, but, again, one that was under good leadership during his time in office.
I think it's also just important to put on record that Huw has not just made a huge impact in terms of his contribution to the public sector, but also to the charitable sector over the years. He's held many roles on a number of charities that also, of course, benefit the public, not least his work as chair of the National Registers of Communication Professionals Working with Deaf and Deafblind People and of course the national trustee status that he held with RNID in Wales, and of course roles on the Prince's Trust and other organisations too. I think it's important to reflect that when you give work out, giving it to a busy person is very often the way to make sure that things are done. And I know that Huw's time was not his own very often, and that he will cherish, no doubt, the extra time that he will now have to be able to focus on his own personal interests. But I wish him every success in his retirement. I think his CBE was richly deserved in the birthday honours list, and I look forward very much to seeing what role Huw will play in the future of Wales as we go forward.
Just one final comment. We've referred to the strains on Assembly Members at times and our capacity to work. I couldn't help but notice that the Llywydd made a statement on the future of the Assembly earlier on today. It's worth reflecting on the fact that, of course, Huw Vaughan Thomas did serve on the Richard commission way back when, which made some clear recommendations about the capacity of this National Assembly, and his sage advice on the Richard commission, I believe, still stands today. If there's something else that I think it's important for us to reflect on, it's the advice that he gave as a member of that Richard commission on the capacity of this Assembly, and in particular the numbers of Assembly Members.

Nick Ramsay AC: I've very little to add to that, Llywydd, you'll be pleased to know, other than as a former PAC chair, I know how closely Darren Millar worked withHuw and did a lot of important work. I should probably have pointed out at the start that Huw is in the gallery. I'm just thinking of people watching this from outside and we're all looking heavenward as if he's sitting on a cloud somewhere, but no, he's actually there. But all that remains for me to say is congratulationson your CBE and good luck in the future.

I thank the Chair. I also thank the auditor general and best wishes for the future from us all at this Assembly.

8. Debate on the Standards of Conduct Committee's Report  02-18 to the Assembly under Standing Order 22.9

The next item is the debate on the Standards of Conduct Committee's report to the Assembly under Standing Order 22.9. I call on the Chair of the committee to move the motion, Jayne Bryant.

Motion NDM6773Jayne Bryant
To propose that the National Assembly for Wales:
1. Considers the Report of the Standards of Conduct Committee—Report 02-18laidbefore the Assembly on 9 July 2018 in accordance with Standing Order 22.9
2. Endorses the recommendation in the report that a breach has been found and resolves that the Member, under Standing Order 22.10 (iii) should be sanctioned and excluded from Assembly proceedings for the period of 14 calendar days commencing on the first day of the Assembly term after summer recess (17 September 2018).

Motion moved.

Jayne Bryant AC: Diolch, Llywydd. As Chair of the Standards of Conduct Committee I formally move the motion. The committee considered the report from the National Assembly for Wales Commissioner for Standards in relation to a complaint made against Rhianon Passmore AM for bringing the Assembly into disrepute, which is a breach of the code of conduct. The committee's report details the facts relating to the complaint and sets out in full the committee's reasons for its recommendation. The Standards of Conduct Committee gave the commissioner's report careful consideration and concluded that a sanction was appropriate in this case. This decision was not taken lightly, but it was agreed that the breach warranted a significant sanction. I call on the Assembly to endorse the committee's recommendation.

Julie James AC: Llywydd, I rise today to read out a statement from Rhianon Passmore AM in her own words. So, the words that I’m about to read were written by her and not by myself.
'Llywydd, I apologise to you and all Members of the National Assembly for my absence today. I am grateful for you allowing the leader of the house to read out this personal statement to the Assembly. I referred myself to the standards commissioner, I assume responsibility for my actions. I accept the recommendations of the commissioner and the decision of the Assembly standards committee. I apologise.
'Whilst I can often be described in public as a self-confident female politician, I've had to encounter private struggles that I have found it difficult to master. While I wish to maintain privacy for my private life and for my family, I do want to acknowledge the support I have received during this incredibly difficult time. I remain committed to doing my job for the people who elected me to the best of my ability.
'None of this excuses my guilt for breaking the law. I am profoundly sorry for that. I want to recognise the humanity that has been shown to me in private correspondence from Members across the Chamberand from journalists who scrutinise our work. I will ensure that the issues in my private life are tackled, and I remain committed to passionately serving the constituents I'm honoured to represent to the best of my ability. I know I have to regain people's trust, and I shall work my hardest, and to the best of my ability, every day to achieve that. Thank you. Rhianon Passmore AM.'
Diolch.

Committee Chair to respond—Jayne Bryant.

Jayne Bryant AC: Diolch, Llywydd. I'd like to thank the Member once again for providing a further statement today and for putting on record, once again, her apology.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

9. Motion to note the annual report on the Assembly Commission's Official Languages Scheme for 2017-18

The next item is the motion to note the annual report on the Assembly Commission’s official languages scheme for 2017-18. I call on a member of the Commission, Adam Price.

Motion NDM6774Elin Jones
To propose that the National Assembly for Wales, in accordance with paragraph 8(8) of Schedule 2 of the Government of Wales Act 2006:
Notes the Annual Compliance Report on the Assembly Commission’s Official Languages Scheme,laidbefore the National Assembly for Wales on 11 July 2018.

Motion moved.

Adam Price AC: Thank you, Llywydd. It gives me great pleasure to present this annual report on the Assembly Commission’s official languages scheme for the fifth Assembly.
The Commission has set the aim of being an institution that’s known for providing excellent bilingual services that are innovative, and to be a body that’s an example for other bodies in Wales and beyond. It’s good, therefore, to present this report on progress on this ambition.
First, I will address the themes that have been set for the period of the scheme. We have set five themes to structure our work, with the aim of achieving our ambition of becoming a truly bilingual institution that looks for every opportunity to facilitate and promote the use of the Welsh language.
The first theme relates to recruitment, and, as we committed to achieving by this summer, we have adopted a new approach to recruitment. Now, the Commission will set specific Welsh language skills levels for every post that we will advertise. This will mean that a basic level of Welsh language skills will be part of the job description for any role that does not require a higher level of skills. For posts that require a higher level of Welsh language skills, we have introduced a matrix that defines those levels from one to five.
This is a clear statement, Llywydd, of our ambition to support the workforce of our national Parliament to take ownership of the Welsh language, without exception, to confirm its position and status as a language that belongs to all citizens of Wales, and to take practical steps to enable all of our staff to serve the people of Wales in both our languages.
The second theme is language skills, and, again, a series of targets have been set to be delivered by the summer of 2018. Over the past year, the language skills team has worked on developing a Welsh language skills training programme that is available to all, from new learners to fluent Welsh speakers. Over the summer, we will trial more intensive training, and staff and Members have had an opportunity to be part of the residential provision of the Cymraeg Gwaith project under the auspices of the National Centre for Learning Welsh.
In terms of language planning, which is the third theme, all services have been updating their language schemes with the support of the official languages ​​team. As well as ensuring that our workforce has the appropriate level of Welsh language skills, it is crucial too, of course, that we do plan in a meaningful way to provide opportunities for all our staff to use their Welsh language skills, at whatever level, in their day-to-day work. In reviewing our service language plans, we have seen language domains developing within the institution, with teams working internally through the medium of Welsh, but providing external services bilingually. These domains are something that we will be eager to develop further over the next year.
The fourth theme relates to Assembly proceedings. Work in this area has focused on supporting Members and facilitating bilingual working.
The fifth theme is the broadest in terms of the work done over the year. The targets here are relatively simple, generally speaking, but, together, they will make a major contribution to changing the image and ethos of our institution to reflect the bilingual nation that we serve. Badges and lanyards are now being used and distributed by default, and many Commission staff use the 'iaith gwaith' badge on their e-mails too. As you would expect, our work on language technology has continued, including some work that has led to a very exciting project for the Table Office and Record of Proceedings teams.
To move on to the service levels within the scheme, we have information on how we’ve maintained the standards that have been set. For the first time this year, the annual report includes statistics on many elements of the services that we provide. During the process of drafting the scheme, the Culture, Welsh Language and Communications Committee told us that data of this kind would be useful in assisting Members to monitor our performance in certain areas. We have set this out in the annual report and I look forward to working further with the committee on this work in the near future. I have to turn around 180 degrees to see you. This data will form a baseline to measure our performance over coming years and to target training for staff. We will also do everything within our ability to ensure that more bilingual information, including evidence and legislation, is available to Assembly Members as they take part in proceedings and prepare for those proceedings.
Finally, I’ll move on to monitoring and compliance. In the report, we report on the complaints and the feedback that we’ve received and the steps that have been taken and any further steps that we will take to deal with any problems and to ensure that we are fully compliant, in the spirit of transparency and providing assurance to the people of Wales that this institution is one that takes linguistic equality seriously in word and deed. Once again, these details will assist you to hold the Assembly Commission to account for our activities in supporting you and the people of Wales to work and to engage with us as an institution in your official language of choice, and therefore improve our bilingual services further for the future. Thank you.

I call on the Chair of the Culture, Welsh Language and Communications Committee to speak—Bethan Sayed.

Bethan Sayed AC: Thank you, Llywydd, I’d like to welcome the publication of the OLS annual report for 2017-18. Evidently, it’s very helpful that the report is being published as early as possible. I’d like to congratulate the Commission and the staff of the Assembly for achieving the commitment to publish the report by July following the financial year to which it relates.
Although we do welcome that, it does cause some difficulties for us as a committee. The first chance the Culture, Welsh Language and Communications Committee had to consider the report was at our meeting this morning. This was too late for us to be able to have considered advice about its content and has not allowed time for us to consider whether we wanted to scrutinise the Commission on its content, let alone actually conduct any additional scrutiny. Ideally, the committee would wish to have seen the report in good time to consider its content, and conduct scrutiny if it thought that was necessary, and then feed the outcome of that scrutiny through to this debate today.
I have spoken to Adam Price and I do understand that there are some practical issues with publishing the report much earlier in the year. We certainly wouldn’t want to hold up the publication in future. Nevertheless, I would ask that the Commission makes every effort in future years to publish the report early enough to allow the committee to properly consider it, and, if necessary, to conduct scrutiny before the Plenary debate. If that means that the Plenary debate needs to be held in the early autumn rather than on the last day of the summer term, then I think that’s a price worth paying for effective scrutiny.
Turning to the content of the report itself, I do have a number of points to make and questions for the Commissioner. Firstly, when the current scheme was drawn up, an equality impact assessment was prepared. I note that the working group established to work on theme 1, namely recruitment, checks regularly that the tasks arising from the EIA are in fact being carried out. However, could the Commissioner ensure that a revised EIA, which shows clearly the progress made on these tasks is now published?
There is not a great deal of information in the report on the new recruitment process and the language skills level information collected. Perhaps the Commissioner could expand on that. For instance, the new courtesy level certificate that will be given to everyone assessed at this level will only last for two years. Why two years? An explanation of the thinking behind this would be helpful for us as a committee. More generally, more information in this area and, in future years, more data—more data again, sorry—on the numbers recruited at each level would be very useful for us.
The report says that the Assembly Commission expects those organisations and bodies that are subject to language standards or schemes to comply with their own schemes in submitting information to the Assembly. However, the report refers to subordinate legislation, which is often presented in English only. I wonder if the Commissioner could comment further on that and what steps are being taken to ensure that the Welsh Government, I assume, complies with its responsibilities in this area.
On a similar point, I note that 23 per cent of papers submitted by the Welsh Government to Assembly committees are in English only. What steps is the Commission taking to raise this issue with the Welsh Government? Also, on the Welsh Government’s compliance, there is currently no information on the extent to which Assembly Members receive replies in Welsh to written Assembly questions. In fairness, that’s an issue for the Assembly to address in the first instance, but is there any evidence of the Government replying in English to questions in Welsh?
Twenty per cent of contributions in Plenary debates by Members are made in Welsh. However, just 8 per cent of contributions in committee are made in Welsh. Can the Commissioner offer any explanation for that disparity and whether any work is being done to encourage greater use of Welsh in committees? In my personal opinion, one of the main problems is, sometimes, we ask questions in Welsh and people take off their headsets and then expect, sometimes, that the supplementary questions are going to be asked in English, and that interrupts the flow of those asking the questions. So, maybe more information for those giving evidence before committees that there is an expectation—or perhaps they can keep the headsets on during the committee meetings.
Finally, I note that there are examples of complaints that have arisen about non-compliance with the scheme, and you’ve already referred to this, Adam. However, there are no data to give us a sense of the scale of the complaints. It would be helpful if, in future, data are included on the number of complaints received so that comparisons can be made from year to year. This would also allow any increase or decrease, as well as any trends about the type of complaints, to be monitored more effectively.
I’d like to finish by thanking all the staff of the Assembly who help us to work in a genuinely bilingual environment, whether that be the translators translating my remarks today or those who help us with written translation services. But I’d also like to thank those staff, Welsh and non-Welsh speakers alike, who recognise the importance of this place being seen as an exemplar of a bilingual institution and who, through their work, allow us to work in our language of choice and who ensure that services are provided to allow the public to interact with us in their language of choice.

Suzy Davies AC: Thank you very much, Llywydd. I am more than content to note this report and even to welcome it. Over the past year, it seems to me that this place has started to feel slightly different; the Record has improved and I’m pleased to see that some of our security staff have started to welcome me in Welsh. They’ve probably seen my lanyard; I hope that's the only reason. I also feel that I have benefited from the language improvement classes as well as the Welsh history lessons that came free of charge, which I wasn’t expecting. But it’s also been a pleasure to see that there are more people now wearing these lanyards and more Welsh learners using the Welsh language here in the Chamber. There’s a strong message conveyed there too, because I’ve noticed that some, at least, have come from areas of Wales where there aren’t many Welsh speakers. There are many people who perhaps haven’t crossed the bridge to understanding how important the Welsh language is the length and breadth of Wales, and to see some Members from the Valleys, for example, standing up and speaking Welsh perhaps for the first time, that sends a clear and important message, I think.
I'm pleased that you made reference to the culture committee in the report, and, although I'm happy to see a baseline in terms of Assembly advertisements and business, it's still disappointing that the report is full of sentences in terms of 'an increase in learners' or 'several courses' or 'groups of learners', without providing specific figures. It's going to be impossible to see next year the scale of any success there. I'm sure there will be success, but it'll be difficult to identify that success, and in terms of individual skills too.
I know it's difficult to say who has made progress, because there's a question of confidentiality involved there, but I particularly feel that it would be useful to understand how many Members' support staff have taken up the offer and what sort of problems they've encountered in terms of taking up the offer, given their patterns of work. I'm not making excuses for them, of course, but we all know as Members how difficult it is to find time during the week for us to have some help with the Welsh language, and the same is true for our staff too.
So, as a Commission, we've had a staff survey quite recently, and that includes Member support staff. Was there any information that emerged there on how many people were aware of the pages on the website about the scheme, about help with translation, for example? Do we know how many hits the language scheme pages have had? It wasn't clear to me in the general staff survey what our staff thought about the scheme.
In terms of the Commission, of course we are looking at a flexible workforce now, and I understand that the capacity to provide services within teams, rather than asking for unrealistic levels of skills of all individuals, is important. But, in response to the debate, I wonder whether you could say a little more specifically about where you've looked for ideas before creating this language skills framework and who has oversight of the process of deciding on fluency levels? Because the investment and resourcing board is no more, of course.
Just turning to the Government papers, which Bethan Sayed referred to already—is it clear, in terms of subordinate legislation, whether that problem emerges from the UK Government or the Government here? Because if the Government here is—well, both of them, actually. Anyone now who is subject to standards shouldn't be looking for excuses for not complying with those standards. Of course, everyone can excuse the odd slip here and there, but to have something that's apparently more systematic than that—then there are questions to be asked of the Government here and perhaps the Government in Westminster. I'd like to know how you're going to face and deal with that.
I'm going to check my answerphone message, certainly. That's something I need to do, because, if we've received a complaint about that, I'll need to sort that out.
Just to conclude, Llywydd, I agree with the point about both languages being broadcast simultaneously, particularly as someone who is still learning. Subtitles are far better. We heard this morning in committee about S4C and what they're currently doing in terms of their subtitling system, and I know that the Commission has been in contact with them. Just to give you an example, I was listening in the cafe earlier, or trying to listen, to Simon Thomas's question—and I'm talking here about the internal system, not an external system, and for someone like me who is looking for opportunities to pick up new vocabulary, it was disappointing not to be able to listen to Simon, because he often uses words that are new to me. Therefore, if people outwith the institution have the same experience—[Interruption.] [Laughter.] They're words new to you, apparently, as well. Okay, that's fine. If there is something that we could do in future on that, for someone like me, it would be a major step forward I think. Thank you.

Siân Gwenllian AC: Thank you for this important report. I was pleased to see that the Assembly Commission was providing bilingual papers to committees on the whole, but, as Suzy and Bethan have mentioned, I was concerned to see that the Government has presented information in English only 174 times. The report also states that 25 per cent of documents laid—as we’ve just been discussing, the explanatory memoranda and subordinate legislation—were not laid bilingually, and these are documents that the Government itself produces. So, we do need to convey a clear message to the Government today to ensure that the Government does comply with the language standards that have been imposed upon them in their dealings with the Assembly. I call on the Government to collaborate with the Commission to ensure that they do improve their performance and don’t hamper the will of this Assembly.
This year’s report includes data, but it is initial data, and the report also states that reports in ensuing years will include data in a way that will enable the comparison of the situation over a number of years, and this is very important, of course. It would also be beneficial, I think, to have a full audit of the Assembly staff for us to know how many people have bilingual skills, in which departments, and so on and so forth. This is crucial in order to plan the workforce of the future and also to use our current workforce more effectively. I’m pleased to see that there is a note that there is an intention to do that.
I’m also very pleased to see these language domains developing within the Assembly, which are teams of people who work mainly through the medium of Welsh, and I hope to see these develop. The teams include a combination of fluent speakers and Welsh learners, and language planners do note, generally speaking, that creating language domains within the workplace where the minority language is used for administration and internal communication is crucially important in safeguarding and developing a language. Creating a language skills audit would encourage the creation of further Welsh language domains, and I look forward to see that developed.
Just one thing in conclusion: as you know, I choose to use my first language, the Welsh language, on virtually all occasions in the Assembly and I’m very pleased that I’m able to do that. One barrier to that is the fact that research briefings for committee work are prepared in English and that occasionally means a delay of a day or two before the Welsh language version is available. One way of starting to overcome that problem would be to encourage those who do have bilingual skills within the Research Service to draft their briefings in Welsh initially. I’m sure they would be translated to English very swiftly if that were the case. For me, this is one sign of real bilingualism, namely that documents are drafted in Welsh and very little of that seems to be happening at the moment, from my experience, at least. In addition to moving in that direction, perhaps including a specific indicator to show progress in that area may be important.
So, I do look forward to seeing the fruit of this labour developing and to seeing further general improvements by next year’s report. Thank you.

Adam Price to reply to the debate.

Adam Price AC: Thank you, Llywydd. There are so many interesting comments and questions and I’m very grateful for those, but it won’t be possible for me to respond to them all in the next two minutes, so please forgive me for that. But, I will certainly ensure that you will get a reply. In terms of the lack of time for scrutiny, well, to a certain extent, I’m to blame for that. I’m not going to blame little Ilar for that. We had timetabled this for the last day for a reason, and so—. But I do look forward to scrutiny by the committee in due course, and we will be looking at the arrangements for next year. In terms of the EQIA, it is a live document, and as the steps that we take are delivered, we will be updating that in due course, but I’ll provide more information to you on that. The new recruitment system has only been in place since the start of this week, so there will be more information next year. In terms of the two-year certificate, the working group is of the opinion that there would be a need to refine the courtesy skills periodically. So, that’s the reason for the two-year timeframe. In terms of having quantitative figures in terms of skills and learners and the full audit that Siân Gwenllian referred to, I think that would be of benefit. So, I do hope that we will enrich the annual reports with more quantitative information in the future, and we can also look at the number of hits on the page on the scheme and so forth and look at how that works. I do intend to write to the BBC about subtitling along the lines that Suzy Davies did suggest, and in terms of the research briefings, I think Siân’s suggestion is a very constructive one and we will look into that and we will report back to you. Forgive me, but I have run out of time. It will be possible for us to write to everyone and copy everyone in with fuller answers.FootnoteLink

Information further to Plenary

The proposal is to note the annual report. Does any Member object? The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

10. Debate on the Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee report: Making the economy work for people on low incomes

That brings us to our next item, which is a debate on the Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee report on making the economy work for people on low incomes. I call on the committee Chair to move the motion—John Griffiths.

Motion NDM6771John Griffiths
To propose that the National Assembly for Wales:
Notes the report of the Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee, 'Making the economy work for people on low incomes', which waslaidin the Table Office on 23 May 2018.

Motion moved.

John Griffiths AC: Diolch, Llywydd. I’m very pleased to open today’s debate on our committee report. I would like to start by thanking all those who contributed to our inquiry, either by giving written or oral evidence, but in particular those people who participated in our focus groups. Hearing from them about the challenges of insecure work, low pay and accessing the welfare system really focused our minds and directly influenced our conclusions. Inequality causes great damage to our communities in so many ways, reducing quality of life for everyone, including those who are relatively prosperous. This is increasingly evidenced and acknowledged, and awareness has been raised by publications such as the book The Spirit Level. Wales has particular challenges to improve standards of living, and this report is one strand of the committee's work to help tackle inequality and poverty. We make 23 recommendations in total on a wide range of issues, from the Government’s economic strategy to quality of work and welfare. The Welsh Government accepted six recommendations, accepted 15 in principle and rejected two.
The response is disappointing in places. In particular, there is a lack of detail or meaningful engagement with the recommendations and the evidence underpinning them. In some areas, Welsh Government feels unable to commit to certain recommendations until the ongoing procurement review is completed. I would ask that the Cabinet Secretary agrees to come back to the committee following the publication of that review with a more detailed response to recommendations 14, 15 and 16 on procurement. There is also the ongoing activity on fair work, which is reflected in the Government's position. Recommendations 18, 20, 21 and 22 are, in effect, passed to the fair work commission for consideration. These recommendations relate to reducing the use of zero-hours contracts, increasing the use of the voluntary living wage and reducing the gender pay gap. As these are all matters that could have a direct impact on the levels of take-home pay for people at the sharp end of the labour market, it is concerning that decisions have been deferred until next year. We will continue to monitor the response to these recommendations and the progress of the fair work commission. As with procurement, we would expect to get detailed responses to our recommendations from Welsh Government once the commission has reported.
Llywydd, throughout our work, there were a number of key policy announcements by Welsh Government that we took into account, in particular the publication of the economic action plan and the employability plan. While broadly welcoming the shift in approach, we shared the concerns from stakeholders that both plans lack clear actions, deadlines and indicators against which performance can be measured. We therefore made recommendation 2, which calls for a single, joined-up implementation plan detailing how the economic action plan and the employability plan will be delivered. The Welsh Government accepted this in principle, stating that it will continue to consider the optimal mechanisms for managing and reporting on delivering, and will publish a progress report on the employability plan in September. It also cites the well-being indicators as a mechanism to ensure consistent measuring. We do not feel that this goes far enough. We are concerned that there is a risk that the good intentions in both these important plans may not be realised without setting clear timescales, deliverables and milestones. It also makes it very difficult for us as Assembly Members to scrutinise the effectiveness of the plans. I would like to receive greater clarity on why this recommendation was not fully accepted.

John Griffiths AC: Closely linked to this are our continuing concerns that the lack of a dedicated tackling poverty strategy will hamper the Welsh Government’s intentions to deliver prosperity for all. Recommendation 1 in this report is a repeat of our recommendation from our Communities First report, calling for such a strategy. Reflecting on the evidence we heard throughout the course of this inquiry, we became even more convinced. We do not accept the Welsh Government’s view that it would prevent a holistic approach to tackling complex issues. It is within the Government’s gift to develop a strategy that takes such a holistic approach. We will continue to make the case.
In exploring the focus on regional economic development within the economic action plan, we acknowledged that communities across Wales face different challenges and opportunities, and that this needs to be reflected in economic development. What works in Carmarthen might not work in Caernarfon. One of the most direct levers available is the placing of good-quality public sector jobs in areas outside Cardiff. We have seen this to an extent, with Welsh Government offices opened in Merthyr Tydfil, Aberystwyth and Llandudno Junction, but we think more could and should be done. We therefore make recommendation 6 that the Welsh Government reviews its location strategy to ensure a better spread of public sector jobs across Wales, and in particular deprived areas. This was accepted in principle, but the accompanying narrative does not engage fully with the recommendation. I ask the Cabinet Secretary to what extent the location strategy will achieve its aims to relocate jobs to those areas in Wales that are set to lose EU structural funding, and whether there are any plans to review the strategy. 
Recommendation 17 called for the Welsh Government to publish the composition, terms of reference and details of meetings of the fair work board. The Government’s response accepted this in principle, stating that these could be made available. Can you please confirm, Cabinet Secretary, whether this information will be published? I have already touched on our recommendations around pay, which are to be considered by the fair work commission. However, there is one further recommendation on pay I would like to seek further clarity on today. Recommendation 19 called on the Welsh Government to develop a broad and wide-reaching campaign to encourage payment of the voluntary living wage. This was accepted in principle, but while details of the actions taken so far to encourage payment were provided, the response does not give a clear answer as to whether a broad-based campaign will be developed. We heard that such a campaign in Scotland had been very positive, and we believe this could be an effective way forward. I would like to seek clarity from the Cabinet Secretary as to whether the Welsh Government will be developing such a campaign.
Llywydd, I now look forward to hearing contributions from across the floor, and the Cabinet Secretary’s response.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: I am pleased to be contributing to this debate today, after the insightful and eye-opening report on poverty in Wales by our committee. As you know, it is our committee's third strand of work on this exceptionally important issue, and the report stands by the need for the Welsh Government to streamline policy and set forth a clear, creative strategy to tackle poverty and to ensure that people in Wales have access to good-quality work and income.
Nearly a quarter of people in Wales live in poverty, and in my own constituency, in Conwy, specifically, 20 per cent of adults between 16 and 64 are unemployed. What is even more worrying is that there has been very little improvement, according to the figures, since 2005. Furthermore, it is the older people in the workforce who routinely get a bad deal. As Prime Cymru stated:
'Two-thirds of the people we work with are saying that they’re being discriminated against because of age in the workforce.'
And the Older People’s Commissioner for Wales report that only 22 per cent of older people leave their jobs willingly, as opposed to being pushed or nudged out is not good reading. This highlights the importance of retraining and employability support, but more so that the Welsh Government employment support schemes target those that are most in need, i.e. people who are already benefiting from UK Government support. As our report highlights, in order to make work for everyone, a joined-up approach is needed to tackling Wales's skills gap, and it is crucial to prevent people who are re-entering the jobs market from getting lost in Government red tape, to ensure that they can access opportunities that enable them to improve themselves, become incentivised and reinvigorated.
Welsh Conservatives would deliver a support scheme in tandem with the UK Government and its own Work Programme, to open up opportunities for those to participate in it, to ensure they can access upskilling and the required training. While I am pleased that the Welsh Government's response to recommendations within the report are largely positive, I am, however, disappointed to note the rejection of setting out and publishing a clear poverty strategy, bringing together the various elements of poverty reduction and establishing definitive performance indicators to make sure it's working, and that it is deliverable.
The auditor general noted, in his correspondence to the Public Accounts Committee on Monday, that on reflection of the many reports stating the systemic problems in Wales that need to be fixed, he himself finds himself both frustrated and increasingly concerned that we have not used devolution as an opportunity for a fundamental rethink. I second this opinion, and would be grateful if the Cabinet Secretary might confirm here today how these recommendations in the report are going to be taken forward, and what outcomes we can expect to see over the next 12 months. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Siân Gwenllian AC: Here we are, once again, discussing another committee report that’s been given a very disappointing response from Government, with only six of the 23 recommendations being accepted. The unacceptable use of 'accept in principle' is put into place 15 times in the case of this report. Although it’s eight months since the Welsh Government Permanent Secretary stated in a letter to the Chair of the Public Accounts Committee that the Welsh Government shouldn’t be using this term 'accept in principle', they do it 15 times in this report.
It’s very disappointing that two important recommendations and completely sensible recommendations are rejected—rejected outright, that is. First of all, recommendation 1, namely to
'strongly recommend that a clear tackling poverty strategy is published, which brings together the many strands of poverty reduction work to help provide clear direction and to help the Assembly scrutinise the Government’s approach.'
That was rejected. It's difficult to believe what is then said in the narrative as an explanation for that rejection. This is what they say:
'We can only effectively respond to the long-term challenge of addressing poverty by joining up everything we do.'
Well, exactly. That's exactly why we need a strategy, to draw all of those strands together under one umbrella. That makes full sense, but it is rejected here, unfortunately.
The other recommendation that is rejected is this one: the committee recommends,
'as part of any consideration of the devolution of powers on the administration of Universal Credit, the Welsh Government undertakes and publishes analysis of the benefits and risks.'
The response again is a rejection. What on earth is wrong with carrying out an analysis—to look at the benefits, to look at the risks and to bring a report forward? And if the analysis demonstrates that there are too many risks, then that will strengthen the Government's case, which opposes even considering the devolution of welfare payments or the work of administering those pay payments. And let's be clear, we are talking about the administration of those payments here. To say something like this—this is what the Government has said in response to this:
'As a matter of principle, we should all be entitled to an equal claim from our welfare state.'
Well, of course we should, but to make such a point and to use it as an argument against devolution is a very dangerous argument to make. One of the merits of devolution, for me, is to enable us in Wales to plough our own furrow if we feel that UK policies are not in keeping with our values, as in this case. We are truly talking about a minor change here—the devolution of administration. It's very disappointing that the Government isn't even willing to study the issue, just to look at it and present a paper to us on the benefits and potential risks. I'm pleased to say that the committee will be looking at this issue. We as a committee will be doing a piece of work to look at how the devolution of parts of the administration of the welfare system has worked in Scotland.
I will conclude on a slightly more positive note. Our committee highlighted the importance of disseminating public sector employment across Wales, and the report does recommend that this should happen more, with the focus on disadvantaged areas. It is crucial that we do disseminate employment from the south-east of Wales. As the Government and other public services consider changing the way that they provide services, as they change location, or in creating new locations for services, it is crucially important that they consider this.
The report covers procurement, and many recommendations were made as to how the economic contract could be used to promote the objectives that are shared here. We are also looking forward to seeing the action plan on reducing the gender pay gap, once the fair work board has published its recommendations. We must realise, I think, that low wages are an equality issue as well as being an economic issue.
I am concluding, but I do believe that this is a very useful and comprehensive report. It does demonstrate how the Welsh Government can do far more, if it chose to, and shows how very small changes to policy could make a major difference to those on low wages in Wales.

Gareth Bennett AC: Thanks to the committee Chair for bringing today's debate, and to the people who took part in the inquiry. There are several factors involved in being on a low income, but most of them are connected to a person's employment situation. One of the worrying developments of recent years in Wales, and in the UK generally, is that many people on low incomes are now those who are in full-time employment. This demonstrates that many jobs are poorly paid. Many jobs also, in what we now call the gig economy, do not guarantee a full working week. There are some jobs for which people can turn up for work only to be told that there is no work that day. Then they have to return home. So, we have to deal with the problem that employment law in the UK does allow for zero-hours contracts and similar situations.

Gareth Bennett AC: So, we do have problems with the world of work, which today is something of a minefield. Many of today's jobs are just a job, and do not really qualify as being what we would have termed 40 years ago as being a job with prospects. So, I wholeheartedly endorse the committee's recommendation 12, which calls on the Welsh Government to work with employers in the foundational sectors to pilot job ladders within firms to improve career progression within those companies.
Now, I've had quite a lot of jobs in my time—at least 35 of them, when I started totting them up—several of which I was actually sacked from, you may be surprised to hear, or not. But it is disheartening to do a job to the best of your ability and to gradually realise that there is actually no obvious career progression available, however well you perform at the job. The only incentive is to actually keep the job itself, and, of course, in an economy with stagnant wages there is no guarantee that your wage is even going to keep up with inflation. It often annoyed me that managers were brought in from outside companies to manage a work team with no knowledge of the work practices that were going on. I would always favour people being promoted from within the team, wherever possible.
One of the problems we have today is that there are simply too many people entering the job market. This means that wages are kept low and there is no incentive for a company to invest in its own workforce. That lack of investment in its own staff is a key reason why productivity today is worse in the UK than in, for example, Germany. Of course, from our viewpoint in UKIP, the elephant in the room is immigration. If you have a system that allows for hundreds of thousands of immigrants to enter your country every year, then you are allowing employers the opportunity to keep hiring cheap labour. It creates an employers' market. These are the simple rules of supply and demand as applied to the job market.
Of course, the left-wing parties won't agree with me that immigration has any adverse effect upon workers' wages and upon workers' conditions and career progression. I will have to beg to differ with them quite strongly on that point. What we can perhaps agree on is the need for companies to provide a good structure for career progression and agree that the Welsh Government must do what they can to help provide this outcome. So, I agree that we can use things like Welsh Government funding and Welsh Government contracts as a carrot to incentivise companies to foster this kind of job ladder at their firms.
Now, with regard to the subject of Welsh Government and public sector contracts, we do have to be wary of certain loopholes that companies can achieve to get around the rules. For instance, the Welsh Government can bring in rules regarding procurement, as we advocate in recommendation 14, but we have to ensure that the Government looks not just at the principal contractor on a job, and what their employment practices are, but also at the practices of the various subcontractors that the principal contractor brings in to do the actual work. If we don't thoroughly go down the supply chain and look at this properly, then you can have principal contractors crowing at how well they are treating their workers, but knowing full well that their subcontractors have people on zero-hours contracts, for instance.
I remember the old Investors in People certificates that companies used to get in the 1990s and put in a frame cupboard on the wall. It made me laugh when I looked at those certificates at a couple of places I worked at who were really bad employers. So, we have to ensure that getting some kind of Welsh Government mark as being a good employer is not just a fig leaf covering up all sorts of bad practices underneath.
Recommendation 23, which relates to the devolution of universal credit—Siân Gwenllian referred a lot to this in her response, and I broadly agree with her. Now, in UKIP we haven't supported the devolution of welfare payments, or, as Siân calls it, the devolution of the administration of welfare. But we have agreed that the Welsh Government should now publish an analysis of the benefits and risks of this so at least we can have an argument with all the facts transparently before us. This recommendation wasn't saying that we should agree to devolve welfare or the committee would never have agreed to it. It was just a call for the provision of some evidence.
The Welsh Government Ministers have stated in the Chamber in the past that the reason that they opposed the devolution of welfare was because Wales would lose out financially. Plaid have disputed this aspect of their argument. The Welsh Government position now appears to have changed, and they don't mention the financial argument anymore. It's all highly mysterious. I repeat the advice of our recommendation 23, that the Welsh Government now needs to provide us with a benefit and risk analysis to back up what the Ministers have said in the past. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Jenny Rathbone AC: I hadn't intended to speak about immigration, but I think Gareth Bennett's remarks require some challenge, because I absolutely don't think that the issues we face in our economy are to do with too many people looking for work. I think it's much more about our attitude towards the people capital that we have and how we deploy it, and in the context of automation that's an extremely important matter.
I absolutely do disagree that unemployment is down to immigration. Without immigration, we would have serious gaps in our national health services—doctors, nurses, radiographers—as well as people working in the animal welfare industry, our vets, our engineers, as well as propping up the tourism and agricultural industry. This we will find out if—. I hope it doesn't happen, but if the UK Government completely messes up the negotiations with Europe, we'll suddenly find we have massive gaps in keeping our economy running and our services running. I just think it's completely misplaced to think that the challenges that people face getting appropriate work are down to immigrants. I think that they absolutely enhance the workforce and give us a better quality of services. The issue we have to address, though, is how to ensure that gangmasters aren't controlling people and exploiting them.
Last week, I and several Members met a delegation from the Basque Country, led by the President of the Basque Government. I know I'm not the only person who's been to the Basque Country to look at the Mondragon industries, which have been so successful in creating socially useful, extremely productive and successful industries. But, I do recall on a visit I had about two years ago that one statistic stuck in my mind, which is that, of all the employees that they have, they've never actually sacked anybody, because their human resources policies are so fine-tuned to the individual needs of people who might have mental health needs or training needs that they never need to let people go. They may need to encourage them to move to shift their career pattern, but that's a completely different matter. So, there's an enormous amount we could learn from Mondragon University to promote ethical employment practices across our businesses—private and public.
On the delegation, there were several people, including the Minister for economy. I was particularly interested in her description of the visit that Lesley Griffiths undertook to the Basque Country in June to look at their approach to the food industry, which, of course, is one of the four elements of the Welsh Government's foundational economy. I was particularly interested in the Basque approach to food, which is not just about promoting and marketing food for the tourism market and high-class restaurants that serve incomers. They also focus on the nutritional needs of their whole nation, with a particular interest in the fresh nutritious food required for key groups, namely children and elderly people—pensioners, both in residential homes and in their own homes—to ensure that they eat correctly, and also people with compromised health. She mentioned cancer and diabetes. I would add obesity, but I rather suspect that the Basque Country doesn't have the levels of obesity that we do in this country.
So, I think, looking at the food industry and the recommendations that the Government is only accepting in principle, we know that the food industry is a low-wage sector, considerably reliant on European immigrants to fill gaps in the workforce that other people don't want to fill because the wages are low and the working conditions quite challenging. But we need to note that they are crucial to the harvesting of fruit and vegetables, looking after animals in abattoirs, in the processing factories—in fact, in every aspect of the food chain. We need to worry about how we're going to replace them were these European immigrants to disappear.
So, I was concerned that many of the Government's recommendations to what is admittedly a long report are recommendations in principle. You talk about enabling plans, but not a lot of detail about how you're going to carry out some of the concerns that we have about the systematic discrimination against women, for example, either before or after they have children. In the Cabinet Secretary's response, I hope he can tell us what the outcomes were of the symposium on 13 July that is mentioned in a couple of your answers, or the Government's response.

I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Transport to contribute to the debate—Ken Skates.

Ken Skates AC: Diolch, Llywydd, and can I start by expressing my appreciation to all Members who have spoken today, and to all members of the committee for an insightful report? In particular, can I thank the Chair for leading on the work of the committee?
I think it rightly notes that whilst not all the levers to bring about any significant change in levels of poverty sit with the Welsh Government, particularly powers over the welfare system, we must do all we can to ensure that people in Wales have access to good quality work that provides a decent income. Our national strategy, 'Prosperity for All', provides clear and consistent frameworks for our whole-Government approach to increasing prosperity and addressing the root causes of poverty in a more effective and joined-up way than in the past. This is supported, of course, by our economic action plan, the employability plan, which work in tandem to increase wealth and well-being, whilst also reducing inequalities in both.
Now, Llywydd, at the heart of the economic action plan is a new relationship between Government and business, based on the principle of public investment with a social purpose, a something-for-something relationship between business and Government. We recognise that helping people into work is only part of the solution in terms of the challenge that tackling poverty presents. We need to work with employers to improve the quality of jobs, and to support people to remain in and progress in work, just as Jenny Rathbone has indicated. The new economic contract commits the Welsh Government to investing in economic growth, but with an expectation that the investment will also support the principle of fair work and decent, secure and rewarding employment. We'll continue to promote the benefits of paying the real living wage to business, including improvements to the quality of work of their staff, reduced absenteeism and positive impacts on recruitment and retention.
Our economic action plan provides a context in which we will work with businesses in foundational sectors, such as retail, to understand better the challenges they face, and to promote the living wage as part of sustainable growth. This includes targeted work to support growth and value in these sectors, with the aim of supporting greater opportunities for progression and for decent pay. Again, Jenny Rathbone in particular pointed to the foundational sectors as those areas of activity where women in particular have faced considerable disadvantage. In driving up the availability of higher quality and more secure jobs, we intend to drive down the gap in pay between men and women.
Now, a number of single parents felt that they face specific challenges in finding flexible work. We recognise that increases in the national minimum and living wages alone are simply not enough and need to be set alongside a suite of policies that support improved outcomes for low-income households. For example, our childcare offer will support working parents of three and four-year-olds, and this will increase employment choices, enabling those working part time to work more hours, and to support second earners into work. Households taking up the childcare offer are more likely to benefit from an increase in wage rates, and this combination of policies has the potential to have a positive impact on household income.
Our economic action plan introduces a new regionally focused model of economic development, and I'm pleased to see the broad support for this approach in the evidence given to the committee. The approach recognises the unique circumstances of each region and commits the Welsh Government to working collaboratively across Government and with partners to address challenges, build on strengths and develop distinctive opportunities to maximise growth across Wales. Janet Finch-Saunders identified the relatively high levels of unemployment that she is witnessing in her constituency, and the regional approach is directly intended to iron out regional inequalities across Wales, identifying the key strengths for each of the regions but also making sure that we tackle the individual challenges that our regions face.
Our ambition is also to make Wales a fair work nation, one where everybody can expect decent, life-enhancing work. Earlier this month, the First Minister announced that he had appointed Professor Linda Dickens from a shortlist of suitable, independent and authoritative candidates to chair the fair work commission. The independent commission will build on the work of the fair work board and look into many of the issues raised by the committee's report and more widely by people and organisations that have given evidence.
With nearly a quarter of people in Wales living in poverty, we do not underestimate the scale of the challenge. However, by working collaboratively with partners, we can build on our foundations, futureproof our economy and empower our people and communities so that everyone has the opportunity to contribute to and benefit from economic growth. Whilst I recognise the value of The Spirit Level as a critique of the inequality that we see across western capitalist economies, I also recommend to the chair of the committee Affluenza, as it, along with The Spirit Level, influenced the national strategy and the development of the economic action plan.

I call on John Griffiths to reply to the debate.

John Griffiths AC: I'd like to thank all the Members who've contributed to the debate today and, obviously, the Cabinet Secretary, Llywydd. I think we've seen some common themes amongst some of the points raised—for example, the recommendation to have a tackling poverty strategy and its importance was raised by both Siân and Gareth, and I raised it in my opening remarks. As I said then, this is a matter that we will return to as a committee having made this recommendation now in two separate reports.
Also, in terms of the third strand, as Janet put it, of the committee's tackling poverty work, this report is indeed that third strand and I think that highlights the importance that we attach to tackling poverty and of course its significance in Wales, where, as we all know, there are particular socioeconomic challenges within the UK that we need to understand and deal with.
Also, Llywydd, there's been an emphasis on outcomes and measurability of Welsh Government strategy and policy in this area. That applies to the tackling poverty strategy but it also applies more generally. I very much agree with Members that that is something that we need to again return to as we move forward and seek further information and assurance from the Welsh Government.
Also mentioned by Gareth and Siân was our recommendation that there should be an analysis of the risks and benefits of devolving administration of universal credit. Again, this is something that we raised in a previous report. So, again, we've addressed this matter and made these recommendations in two reports now, Llywydd. Again, we will not leave matters there, but I'm sure we'll return to those issues once more and also raise them in our scrutiny sessions with the Cabinet Secretary. So, again, we certainly intend to pursue that matter because we think it's a very important one and one that does require further analysis, further thought and further consideration.
Llywydd, I'm pleased that Jenny Rathbone responded to Gareth Bennett's comments on immigration because I think these are matters that need to be challenged in terms of the comments that Gareth made. I would add to what Jenny said in terms of the importance of people coming here to work to do vital jobs in our public services and how reliant those public services are on those workers, but it's also the case that, if we look at successful economies the world over, very often, they thrive on the energy, the talents, the skills that inward migration brings, and they've very much prospered by being open to that inward migration. People come in with real energy, starting their own firms and employing other people, as well as providing employment to other firms. Yes, Gareth.

Gareth Bennett AC: How do you therefore account for the fact that we now have wage stagnation and we have many people who are in full-time employment suffering from low wages?

John Griffiths AC: Well I think, as ever, Gareth, that those are very complex matters that you can't simplistically solve by saying that we should have less inward migration to the UK and Wales. You know, we've been in an age of austerity now, sadly, for something like 10 years. It's a deliberate policy choice by the UK Government and it has led to wage stagnation as well as having many other, I would argue, harmful effects.
It was interesting that Jenny mentioned the Basque Country and the fact that they have firms there that have never, ever sacked a single employee, which I think is a great example of responsible and socially responsible employers. I note that Gareth told us that he's had 35 jobs, which is quite a number, Gareth, and good experience to bring to this sort of committee work, but it did strike me that you might think, if you're not successful at the next Assembly election, about getting further details from Jenny Rathbone of that employer in the Basque Country, which provides such sustainable and reliable employment over a period of time. But, of course, I'm sure they have a different attitude to immigration than yours, which would facilitate your movement, were you so inclined.
Can I say as well, Llywydd, that it is really important, I think, as Gareth mentioned, that we take procurement down to the subcontractor level? We do address that in the report, and I know that Welsh Government is alive to the need to not just look at those getting initial contracts from Welsh Government, but also the subcontractors that feed off that business, because, obviously, those subcontractors employ quite a number of people and we need to make sure that they're reached by the sort of good practice and responsible employment code of ethics on employment that we expect from the initial contractors under the procurement policy.
Llywydd, as I've said, there are a number of matters that we will return to as a committee. We do welcome the Welsh Government's shift in approach to economic development. We want to see the good intentions followed through in concrete actions that will really deliver for those at the sharp end of the economy, and we will keep a close eye on relevant developments and the implementation of our accepted recommendations—those accepted in full and those accepted in part. In particular, we will revisit them following publications of the procurement review and the outputs from the fair work commission. We will also continue to make that case for a cross-cutting anti-poverty strategy.
I'd like to conclude once again by thanking all of those who contributed to our inquiry. Diolch yn fawr.

Theproposal is to note the committee's report. Does any Member object? The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

11. Voting Time

That brings us to the next item, which is voting time. There are no votes to be held.

12. Short Debate: The implementation of default 20 mph speed limits in built-up and residential areas in Wales

Therefore, that brings us to thefinal item of the afternoon, which is the short debate, and I call on John Griffiths, once again, to present the short debate in his name—John Griffiths.

John Griffiths AC: Diolch Llywydd. I have given a minute each to Joyce Watson, Mike Hedges and David Melding.

John Griffiths AC: I'd like to use this short debate today to discuss the benefits of introducing default 20-mph speed limits in inner urban areas and why I believe this should be a Welsh Government policy for the whole of Wales. Twenty miles per hour would apply across the country in built-up, residential areas where people live. Local authorities would be able to exempt roads if local circumstances warranted. This would reverse the current position where 30 mph generally applies subject to lower limits for particular roads.
The benefits are many: it makes roads safer to protect life and limb and allows local communities to reclaim their streets. That would facilitate play, cycling and walking, and greater community cohesion and interaction. This, Llywydd, I believe, is an idea and policy whose time has come. It is already established and growing across the world. In the Netherlands, 70 per cent of urban roads have a 30 km or lower limit. In Scandinavian countries, it is becoming the norm in villages and towns. In fact, throughout Europe, these restrictions are increasingly being set across complete authorities, with exceptions for major roads with segregated facilities such as cycle paths. In comparison, the UK has been a late starter, but in the last 10 years, over 25 per cent of the population have gained a 20-mph limit on the streets where they live, learn, shop or work.
Many of our major cities, including Bristol, Manchester and Edinburgh have made the change; 43 per cent of Londoners are living on such roads, and 75 per cent of people in inner London boroughs. Bristol has had great success in adopting this approach, and even complete counties, such as Lancashire, Sefton, Calderdale, Clackmannanshire and Fife, have done so. Our fellow devolved nations are also looking to introduce this policy. In November last year, in Scotland, Green MSP, Mark Ruskell, proposed such a Bill. It is currently out for consultation and would be hugely significant for road safety if passed. I am calling on Welsh Government to do the same.
In the past year, Wales had seen over 3,000 car traffic accidents that resulted in injury or death. In my home city of Newport, there have been more than 140 accidents with three tragically ending in fatalities. Further action is required to reduce this toll on our families and communities. Driving through social housing estates with cars parked along both sides of the road and children playing, drivers have very little time to react if a child runs out into the road from between parked vehicles. Public Health Wales's most recent report by Dr Sarah Jones suggests that if all current 30-mph roads in Wales became 20 mph, six to 10 lives would be saved and 1,200 to 2,000 casualties avoided each year, at a value of prevention of £58 million to £84 million.
The case for change is well evidenced and made. The International Transport Forum of the OECD, in a recent report on 'Speed and Crash Risk', states categorically that where motorised vehicles and vulnerable road users share the same space, such as in residential areas, 20 mph is the recommended maximum. It highlights what we already know: speed has a direct influence on crash occurrence and severity. With higher driving speeds, the number of crashes and the crash severity increases disproportionately. With lower speeds, the number of crashes and the crash severity decrease. Eighty five per cent of pedestrians will survive a 30 km/h—that is 18.5 mph—impact, whereas 80 per cent of pedestrians will die in a 50 km/h, 32-mph impact.

John Griffiths AC: The severity of a collision follows from the laws of physics. At higher speeds, the kinetic energy released in a crash increases, as does the trauma experienced by those struck by, or occupying, the vehicles involved. The increase in crash risk is explained by the fact that when speed increases, the time to react to changes in the environment is shorter and manoeuvrability is reduced.
Lowering the default limit from 30 mph to 20 mph in built-up urban areas significantly decreases the risk of accidents. It may also save time, help make our air cleaner, and encourage more active lifestyles. People wrongly assume that lower limits delay journey times, yet average city speeds are generally well below 20 mph, owing to congestion and queues. Traffic flows more freely at 20 mph than 30 mph. Drivers make better use of road space by parking closer and junctions work more efficiently, and at a higher capacity, as it is easier to merge.
On air quality, mathematical modelling across a range of studies has demonstrated that improvements should result. Research by Imperial College London on speed restriction shows that where traffic flow was interrupted, there were higher emission rates. This study concluded that it would be incorrect to assume 20 mph would be detrimental to ambient local air quality, as the effects on vehicle emissions are mixed.
Lower limits reduce congestion by increasing flow rates and by smoothing traffic through urban environments where cars would usually be stopping and starting. NICE, the National Institute for Health and Care Excellence, recommends urban speed reduction for less pollution. Their guidance says 20-mph limits without physical measures in urban areas help avoidunnecessaryacceleration and deceleration. Smoother driving with less wasteful braking and acceleration cut fuel use by 12 per cent in Germany after 30 km/h limits were implemented. Air quality also improves, since moving traffic emits less pollution than when standing still with engines on. Imperial College recommendations include reducing speed limits on urban roads and to incentivise cycling.
Llywydd, the introduction of this policy would also benefit public health in a number of ways in accordance with the future generations and well-being Act. In built-up areas, more people would feel comfortable to walk and cycle safely, and there would be a more pleasant environment for communities, encouraging community interaction and children's outdoor play.
Sustrans Cymru point to evidence that moving to slower speeds will lead to safer and healthier communities with greater levels of walking and cycling. In 2013, the charity surveyed residents in Wales, with six in 10 supporting 20-mph limits as the default speed for where they live. As a Welsh Government Minister, I was pleased to take forward the Active Travel (Wales) Act, passed in 2013. It places a legal duty on local authorities in Wales to audit existing routes for walking and cycling and then plan and deliver a comprehensive network of routes to work, school and local facilities. Twenty miles per hour limits will facilitate this.
Over the past few generations, unfortunately, there has been a dramatic reduction in the freedom given to children to get out and about without adult supervision. A comparative study by the Policy Studies Institute, spanning 40 years, shows that in 1971, 86 per cent of children of primary school age in the UK were allowed to travel home from school alone. By 2010, it was just 25 per cent. Traffic is a major factor in this change and one of the major barriers to children's freedom to play outside. Our residential streets have become hostile environments for children and teenagers, where informal street play has largely been displaced by the car.
The United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child, which enshrines the right to play, states that consideration should be given to creating child-friendly urban and rural environments through road traffic measures, including speed limits. And Play Wales have provided important information on the role that 20-mph speed limits could have in improving children's ability to play—an activity that is central to their physical, mental, social and emotional health and well-being. The policy is also recommended by the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health Wales, which states that it might have a most wide-reaching and positive effect.
Llywydd, there is a pressing need to develop robust interventions that will have positive effects on the challenges facing public health today, on air pollution, obesity and road traffic injuries, which are all interrelated. A default 20-mph limit can play a major role and we do, I believe, need national consistency with local discretion to achieve the necessary change. These matters are as much about a public consensus as they are about traffic management. If we want consideration of the amenity and safety of residents of communities to be a national norm, then, at some stage, we need a national debate. We need to put communities first and redefine the spaces between our homes. I am a strong advocate of this change and I do believe that it will allow us to reclaim our roads and create community streets—community streets that become a better place to be.
So, over the last few months, I've met with Rod King, the founder of 20's Plenty for Us, an organisation that campaigns for this change, and I'd very much like to thank him for his expertise and advice. When the Assembly resumes in the autumn term, I will be hosting a round-table event on 3 October to discuss this topic further. I'm delighted that Rod King will be there, along with Public Health Wales, academics, Jeff Cuthbert, Sustrans Cymru and Welsh Government.
Llywydd, this is a policy that will deliver important and significant benefits for our communities. I very much hope that we can continue to build and strengthen our campaign and that Welsh Government makes 20 plenty for Wales.

Joyce Watson AC: Thank you, John, for bringing this debate. I debated this many, many years ago and I certainly believe that 20's plenty. I think that want to ask the Government to consider the trunk roads that run through parts of my constituency. I've been contacted by Llanfair Caereinion on one such matter, where schoolchildren have to cross a main road to get to their school. Very often, they have to do the same to get to parks or anywhere else they need to go. So, I think that, whilst local authorities are responsible in the main, we do have to look at trunk roads.

Mike Hedges AC: Can I thank John Griffiths for giving me a minute in this debate? What's the difference between 20 mph and 30 mph? It doesn't sound very much, does it? Well, the perception, the corner vision, how much you actually see, increases the slower you're going. Your reaction time—. For those who did their driving test many years ago, the back page of 'The Highway Code' told you how long it would take to stop at different speeds. And the faster you're going, the longer your reaction time and the longer it takes you to stop when you actually do react. And the crash outcomes—the faster you're going, the more likely you are to seriously damage what are often little people.
I'll just very briefly recount an article that was in the South Wales Evening Post on Saturday, where Robyn Lee, the columnist, wrote about seeing an accident involving a child who just ran straight into the road and was hit by a car. It wasn't a serious accident; the child was just bruised. Why? Not because it was 20 mph, but because, fortunately, there was a very long traffic jam. We can't rely on traffic jams to keep our children safe; we need 20-mph zones.

David Melding AC: I enthusiastically support the case put forward by John Griffiths. I do think that the default should be at 20 mph. There's overwhelming evidence. I think there's popular demand increasing for it. Some survey data were published today about how the public are getting much more demanding of what they expect in their cities, and they want less reliance on cars and more responsible use of cars. The 20's Plenty campaign has, I think, been a huge success. I commend the 20's Plenty campaign in Sully, which I can say today has submitted a petition to the Vale of Glamorgan Council, signed by 718 residents of Sully. I've met with that campaign and I wish them well. I also commend the great work done in Cardiff; they may not quite be up to Bristol's standard yet, but they're making real progress in moving to 20 mph being the default in Cardiff as well. It's time for this change. We should do it. We should set it as the default and then justify, or allow councils to justify, having it higher in select places.

The Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Transport to reply to the debate. Ken Skates.

Ken Skates AC: Can I thank John Griffiths for raising this important matter for debate today? I know that it's an issue that he has felt strongly about for many years, and I'm very pleased to be able to respond to his and other Members' comments. Our new powers over national speed limits offer us opportunities to explore how they may be useful to help us meet our well-being goals in making Wales a more inclusive, healthy and thriving country, and there's been a lot of interest in this very topic of late. When Dr Sarah Jones and Huw Brunt published their research, which concluded that a default 20-mph limit in urban areas could improve road safety and air quality in Wales, we were delighted to invite them along to our active travel conference last year to discuss the issue, and their insight and contribution has assisted greatly. Lower traffic speeds can have a positive impact on road safety by potentially reducing the numbers of collisions and also their severity. And other potential benefits include making road environments more people-friendly overall, reducing severance, encouraging active travel by reducing the speed differential between motorised and active modes, and improving the perception of safety. All of these benefits can only be realised, of course, if lower speed limits are adhered to by the majority of drivers, or if speeds are noticeably reduced, at least.
Up to now, local authorities in Wales have used 20-mph limits overwhelmingly in closely targeted areas. These may cover sometimes only a short stretch of road and sometimes a larger network of streets, and over the years we have funded hundreds of 20-mph zones and limits, from our safe routes and also from our road safety grants right across Wales. These schemes are developed in consultation—that is important—in consultation with communities, and are generally very well supported and welcomed by those communities. I must say in response to Joyce Watson, who raised a really important point about Welsh Government's responsibility, and not just the responsibility of local authorities, we have carried out a comprehensive review of our trunk roads and as a consequence we've introduced our multi-year programme of establishing part-time 20-mph limits near nearly all schools on or close to our trunk roads. These operate at the start and at the end of the school day to create a safe environment for children travelling to and from school, and they also encourage behavioural change, and drive behavioural change, by motorists. Now, this programme will be completed this financial year and will cover 45 locations on our strategic road network. I'm pleased to say that, in Fishguard, we've introduced a permanent 20-mph limit on the trunk road, and, based on evidence and consultation, I'd be more than happy to consider permanent 20-mph limits elsewhere.
Now, as I stated, in order to achieve the positive impacts, lower speed limits need to be complied with, as John Griffiths rightly said. Twenty miles per hour speed limits have proven most effective in reducing speeds where they're either part of 20-mph zones, in which the speed limits are supported by physical measures such as road humps, tables and road narrowings, or where the existing physical environment has constraints that mean the lower speeds actually feel right for the motorist. Llywydd, area-wide signed-only speed limits have achieved varied, but generally smaller, reductions in average speeds. They are, however, becoming more common, in particular in larger urban areas. This includes Cardiff, where area-wide 20-mph speed limits are being rolled out, andI commend the council for doing this. As a result, the evidence base is growing. In deciding if and how we use our new powers, it will be very useful to look in detail at the experiences from these places alongside the comprehensive research carried out for the Department for Transport on the impact of 20-mph speed limits in a diverse range of locations across the UK, and that's due to report imminently.
To supplement this, Llywydd, I've also commissioned an evidence review of published evaluations ourselves. Now, as John Griffiths said in the previous debate, what works in Caernarfon might not work in Carmarthen. So, it's important to also consider alternative or additional means of improving road safety. There are other measures that can contribute to improving safety on our roads, such as a graduated driving licence, which I'm a supporter of, and I'm also a big fan of the play streets initiative, which essentially hands roads back to the communities, particularly for young people for the purpose of play.
I'm also supportive of methods of design to eliminate the most common cause of road traffic accidents, and that's driver distraction—methods such as encouraging motorists to minimise the risk of being distracted themselves by making sure that they don't switch on a mobile phone when they're driving, and to ensure that any entertainment that they have in their car is minimised so they're not distracted by that. I think the urban environment that is planned is also crucial in ensuring that driver distraction is minimised.
So, I strongly believe, Llywydd, that this topic merits very serious consideration, and I'm a strong supporter of 20 is plenty. We'll look at all the available evidence and we'll discuss it with our partners, before the proposals for consultation with the wider public are published.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary, and that brings today's proceedings to a close.

The meeting ended at 18:42.

QNR

Questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Finance

Suzy Davies: What consideration did the Cabinet Secretary give to social care when allocating funding to the health and social services budget?

Mark Drakeford: Annual budget rounds include a series of bilateral discussions, with each Cabinet Secretary. Revenue and capital resources to support priorities within the health and social services portfolio and the local government and public services portfolio, including social care, form part of those discussions.

Jane Hutt: Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on the Welsh Government’s position on fiscal arrangements between the UK Government and the Welsh Government with regard to Brexit?

Mark Drakeford: The Welsh Government's new policy paper sets out the need for a new, rules-based framework for funding and fiscal equalisation when the UK leaves the EU. Above all, the promise that Wales will not lose out as a result of Brexit must be fulfilled.

David Melding: What measures are in place to improve the efficiency of Welsh Government public spending?

Mark Drakeford: The Welsh Government is committed to ensuring public spending is informed by robust evidence, and value for money is considered throughout policy development.

Darren Millar: Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on Welsh Government procurement processes?

Mark Drakeford: Welsh Government procurement processes are governed by the public contracts regulations, Wales procurement policy statement and the well-being of future generations Act. These are considered in all it’s procurement activity in order to deliver value for money whilst seeking to maximise impact in Wales, such as community benefits and sustainability.

Dawn Bowden: What further consideration has the Cabinet Secretary given to a tourism tax following his statement about new taxes in February?

Mark Drakeford: Since February, many UK and international cities and countries have been considering tourism taxes—most recently in Edinburgh and New Zealand. A number of significant policy issues will require further exploration before introducing any local permissive powers. This will consequently be a longer term piece of work.

Jack Sargeant: What discussions has the Welsh Government had with the UK Government regarding transitional arrangements for the UK during its withdrawal from the EU?

Mark Drakeford: We have repeatedly raised the importance of transitional arrangements with the UK Government through the JMC and continue to make clear to the UK Government that a 'no deal' outcome would be catastrophic for Wales and the UK as a whole.

Nick Ramsay: Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on infrastructure investment in Monmouthshire?

Mark Drakeford: The Wales infrastructure investment plan sets out investment of over £6.5 billion in infrastructure across Wales over the remainder of the current Assembly term, including the twenty-first century schools and education programme and the Grange University Hospital.

Questions to the Leader of the House and Chief Whip (Julie James)

Paul Davies: Will the Leader of the House provide an update on the roll-out of broadband in west Wales?

Julie James: The Superfast Cymru scheme has facilitated the roll-out of superfast broadband access to over 142,000 homes and businesses across the region, delivering average speeds of over 91.6 Mbps and investing over £40.3 million.

Darren Millar: Will the Leader of the House make a statement on digital infrastructure in north Wales?

Julie James: The Superfast Cymru scheme has, to date, facilitated the roll-out of superfast broadband access to over 215,000 homes and businesses across the region, delivering average speeds of over 87 Mbps and investing over £60 million.

Simon Thomas: What investment has the Welsh Government made in telecommunications in Mid and West Wales?

Julie James: Through the Superfast Cymru scheme, we have invested over £55 million in broadband telecommunications throughout mid and west Wales. We are also working closely with mobile network operators and the Westminster Government to secure even greater future investment in mobile infrastructure throughout the region.

David Rees: Will the Welsh Government introduce legislation to implement the European Charter of Human Rights following Brexit?

Julie James: The Welsh Government has been clear that UK withdrawal from the EU should in no way lead to a dilution in human rights protections. We are currently assessing the effect of losing access to the charter rights, and what remedial action, if any, is required to mitigate impact in Wales.

Jack Sargeant: What assessment has the Leader of the House made of the success of the Welsh Government's policies to tackle domestic abuse?

Julie James: The annual report that I laid in the Assembly last month outlines the huge progress in delivering the commitments in our national strategy. Our delivery framework will be published before recess and this outlines the actions already achieved and our forward plan for the next three years.

Bethan Sayed: Will the Leader of the House outline the Welsh Government's plans to facilitate greater gender equality by 2021?

Julie James: The first phase of the gender equality rapid review reported last week. This report is a direct and significant challenge to us. It provides areas for action in phase two that we can move forward on immediately and others that will need further exploration. Phase two will begin shortly.